You Don't Have to Have It All Figured Out Right Now (with Robert Dugoni)

Today I am sitting down with Robert Dugoni, New York Times bestselling author and one of my all-time favorite authors. He is best known for one of my all-time favorite books, The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hell. I also love his other book, The World Played Chess, and I recently read Hold Strong, which he came on here to discuss.

I really couldn't recommend his books enough, like they are such worlds, they're so, so good. And he is coming on here to promote and talk about his newest book, Her Cold Justice, the third installment in the Keira Dugan series that is out right now. But this conversation isn't really about writing. It's about anxiety. It's about doubt. It's about what success actually means when you strip away the ego.

We talk about the pressure to perform even when life feels messy. We talk about why young guys feel like they need to have everything figured out. We talk about vulnerability and why so many men operate with a veneer instead of saying what they're actually feeling. Bob is incredibly honest about therapy, about anxiety, about realizing that making money and being successful are not the same thing as being happy.

And one of my favorite things that he said in this episode that really stuck with me is, you don't have to have this all figured out right now. This episode feels really important. It's honest in a way that we don't hear enough. And I am so excited for you to get to hear it. If you are in your 20s or in your 30s or trying to build something or trying to become better or just understand what actually matters.

This episode is for you. I am so excited for you to get to hear this one and I'm so excited to have this episode as part of the Geiss set library. Every time Bob comes on this podcast, I feel like I learned so much and I leave thinking so many new things and with such great takeaways. So I'm just so excited for you to hear this one. So without further ado, please welcome Robert Dugoni to Geiss.

Josh Felgoise (02:31.502)

Thanks for doing this again. really appreciate it. I love getting to talk to you. feel like so lucky getting to talk to one of my favorite authors consistently. It's very cool. You're the first three time guest on GuySat. it's a big honor. I'm honored. That's awesome. And I am so thrilled that it's you. So what do you hope a reader takes away from reading your books or from this interview, from listening to you?

entertainment. Honestly, I just want them to be entertained. When they read my books, I mean, it's like going to the movies, you know, I want them to walk out, close the book and go, wow, that was that was great. Or wow, that was scary. Or wow, that was a lot of fun. I don't I don't try to make political statements. I don't try to make religious statements.

I just try to write a good story and my only hope is that people enjoy it. How do you feel about your role as like an entertainer? Because I agree like you you have this kind of responsibility or your role is to kind of give people an escape from reality and from their lives for a little bit. How do you feel about that role or responsibility? Well, I believe that when when I write a novel and people are going to go out and spend whatever they're going to spend on it.

you know, 20 bucks for a hard copy or $10 for a paperback or $5 for Kindle, whatever they spend on it. I feel like I owe them an obligation to give them my very best. You know, I just have always felt that way. If someone is going to honor me by spending money to buy one of my books, then I want them to know that I gave it everything that I had. And I feel, I feel that's any entertainer's responsibility. You know, growing, growing up when I was

your age, I was doing theater in San Francisco. And it was very much the same thing. You know, you get in a fight with your girlfriend or you, something goes wrong at work or whatever it is. By the time you get to the theater, you have an obligation to go on stage and give them the same performance you gave the night before when everything was fine. And I just feel that way about my novels is that I have an obligation, whether it's the first Tracy Crosswhite or the 12th, which I just finished.

Josh Felgoise (04:56.418)

They have the right to get a good book for what they pay for. How do you separate that? Like how do you take life out of this? Like if you're currently right now, like you get in like a fight with your wife or your kids or there's something going a little sideways in your life, how do you then separate that and lock into your career and feel like you're giving it your all? I've always been able to compartmentalize things.

And for me, writing is an escape. Because when I write, I think we might have talked about this before, I don't outline. I literally take sort of the Stephen King approach, which is I just try to put myself in a place where the story is being told to me, and I'm open to it, and I'm just transcribing it out onto a page. He talks about the story already being written, and I'm just bringing it out into the world. And so when I'm able to do that,

you know, that's my nirvana. That is my happy place. That's where I go to. So a lot of times, writing is my escape from the rest of the world. And you know, I've gotten very good about turning off my email and turning off my phone and putting on some music. And so I'm in this beautiful office with a lot of glass around me, a lot of sunlight, and I have

people talking in my head and I'm enjoying the story being told to me and it's just it's an escape for me and and so I that's where I go. Now you know when it's done you know then I gotta go deal with whatever I have to deal with but most of the time in life the things we have to deal with are really not that important. I mean the most of the time the things we have to deal with in life are not not going to change the world and you know I know when I was younger

You know, everything was a potential catastrophe, right? It's really not. And I think you just kind of get that with age and experience that everything's going to be okay. Did your mindset around your work change once people started paying attention to you? I probably felt even more strongly about the need to, really write a good story.

Josh Felgoise (07:18.164)

Here's the thing that I also came to realize. Everybody that comes to my book, everybody that comes to a movie comes with a different set of circumstances, a different set of facts, right? They come and they show up and they may have served in the military. They may have been in Peace Corps. They may have been traveled all over. Whatever this... They bring something different.

And because of that, because they bring something different, I can't predict how they're going to react to my stories. And so I just have to write the best story and let people get out of it what they get out of it. Because when you try to start writing to a theme or you start trying to write to an idea,

I think I just think that's a mistake because then you're limiting your audience. You're narrowing your audience. And I want people to bring whatever they bring in their life to the book and then get out of it what they get out of it. The other day I did a book club and one of the guys they had read The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hale and one of the guys said this is sort of a love letter to your mom isn't it? And no one had ever said that to me. The book's been out since 2018 and I said

Yeah, you know what? You are absolutely right. It really is. So everybody brings a little bit something different. I just, again, I just try to write a good book that they can pull something out of. Right. That's super interesting. Like you're not trying to have somebody feel some type of way. You're allowing them to develop their own feeling from it or their own takeaway. You're not trying to get them to do that. Exactly.

Writing and creativity requires a level of vulnerability and emotion that I feel like a lot of guys don't access or aren't good at accessing. How did you get to a place where you felt comfortable being vulnerable and being emotional and accessing emotions? I think it's really important for a writer to understand that every character is not you, but every character is of you.

Josh Felgoise (09:37.893)

And so when somebody says to me, that character in that book, that's you, isn't it? I say, no, that's not me. But it's of me. And I think once you do that, what you're really saying is I can let the character be who the character is and not worry about people going, that's you. You're the one that's the weirdo. You're the one that has. No, but it certainly is of me. And once you reach that point where you can say every character is of me,

then I think you allow that character to be free to whatever they are, whatever they really are. And I think that's really important. I was talking with somebody the other day and he had read The World Played Chess and he said, there's a scene in there, he said, I think it's the hardest scene I've ever had to read. And I said, I know exactly what scene you're talking about. And let me tell you, when I was writing that scene, I had tears streaming down my face.

Because I loved that character. I really loved that character. And for me to kill that character was horrific. It was just terrible. And what I gained from that was, imagine being one of the soldiers in Vietnam, and that's your best buddy. Right. And he's there one moment and he's gone the next. I mean, that just must have been horrific. So I think you just have to step back and accept the fact that every character is of you, but they're not you.

That's really well said and a very cool way to look at the people you write and the people you put into the world. How or what have you learned about young guys through writing them?

Huh, you know, I think I think probably I've learned more from the fact that I'm not a young guy anymore. But I was a young guy. And I think the difference with with guys is there's always a veneer. At some level, there's always a veneer. You have a veneer with your buddies. You have a veneer even with your brothers. And you have a veneer even with your parents. I don't know if you ever completely lose that veneer. I think probably the closest that I've come is

Josh Felgoise (11:50.013)

probably with my wife, right? My wife really understands and knows who I am after 30 years because she's seen me at my most vulnerable and she's seen me at my most confident. But otherwise, I think, you we all, we just, we hold back a little bit. I think, I think when guys read books, I think part of their escape is to read about characters who they can get inside their heads.

And they can say, my God, that's, that's how I am. That's how I react. That's what I do. So I think when characters are vulnerable on the page, it allows the reader, especially say young men, it allows those young men to be vulnerable in that moment with that character, which they really don't get a chance to do in real life. Wow. Now that's super interesting. And I think that's probably why so many young guys are attracted to your books and come to them.

looking to either find something or find some sort of inspiration or some sort of answer to a question and relate to them so much is exactly from what you're saying. That's how I felt reading your books. And you're right. Like there's not a lot of vulnerable in a way like figureheads that are guys who share this type of stuff or share their emotions. And that's really interesting. That's well said. You've spoken a lot about anxiety and your anxiety.

Why do you feel like it is important to do that? Because nobody does. You know, nobody does. over the years, I've come to learn also that it's important to not say I have anxiety, but to say I'm anxious about getting to the airport on time. I'm anxious about my golf clubs making it without getting broken. I'm anxious about that test I have coming. I'm anxious about this new job.

because it's okay to be anxious. We're all anxious about stuff. We wouldn't be human if we weren't anxious about stuff. But we label ourselves instead of labeling the situation. And so we say, have anxiety. Well, wait a minute. Everybody's anxious about getting to the plane on time and not missing their flight. Does that mean everybody in the world has anxiety? No, but everybody in the world is anxious. And so the minute I started saying to people,

Josh Felgoise (14:17.939)

I'm a guy that deals with low levels of anxiety doesn't impact everybody just sort of raised their hand and said Thank you so much for saying that thank you for bringing that up because it makes people feel less less like there's there's something wrong with them that they're different and You know, I think if we just talk about stuff Regularly and we admit to the things people go. wait a minute. I I do that. I have that

Does that make you different? No, it just makes you human. So really, that's why I do it. I've been at conferences and I get up and I talk and I get done and there might be 200 people in the audience, 300 people in the audience and 30 or 40 will come up to me and say, thank you so much for bringing that. mean, because it's so common, you know, and I think the thing I've come to realize what I said is,

It's not about having anxiety, it's about being anxious. And that's something that's a universal trait among all people. And it's also about sharing it and admitting it, like you just said. Like it's one of the most important things that you do that a lot of people don't do is just say like, hey, I have this thing. Like it's not that deep, it's not that serious, but like by sharing it, you now make more people comfortable with sharing that they also have it or feeling seen in their own thing.

Yeah, and that's not to underestimate or... There are some people that really suffer from debilitating anxiety. And I don't in any way want to minimize what those people are dealing with because I was there. I I had a period of time, you know, six to eight months where it was almost debilitating. I couldn't really even travel because I was...

so worried about missing my connecting flight. So I don't want to minimize that if there are people out there in the world that that really do suffer from, you know, something that is debilitating, they need to get help. They should go get help. Obviously, absolutely. And all I'm really trying to say is what you said, which is, you know, you're not it doesn't make it doesn't make you a weirdo. doesn't make you different. Right. You know, I go see a counselor every every month or so.

Josh Felgoise (16:38.552)

And he asked me, how are things going? How are things going on? You know, because at nighttime I take a little, you know, Mirtazapine, which very low dose, which, know, but, you know, that's okay. That there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of people out there, but there are some people where it's debilitating and, and, you know, they should not be ashamed to go and get help. And I think it's that right there too. Like there's not a lot of guys, successful guys like yourself who admit that they see someone or talk to someone.

or take something to help their anxiety or whatever they're dealing with. And I think by sharing something like that, it's like when someone hears this, they're like, okay, like it's okay to go talk to somebody. It's okay to admit that something's a little off and it's like okay to allow yourself to admit that, you know, and not feel weird in it exactly like what you said. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. You didn't become a full-time novelist early on in your career.

How did that change your relationship with time and with success?

Josh Felgoise (17:52.127)

I think time wise, I love what I do. And so I am extremely blessed to get up every morning and look forward to going to work because I know so many people don't have that ability. So time wise, I think it's made me enjoy life more and I am starting to learn how to not do anything.

I'm starting to learn to say to myself, I'm outside and I'm reading a book and that's okay. I have the time, I have the right, I have the ability, whatever you want to call it, to not do anything. And if I just want to sit out on a patio and stare at the ducks on a pond, that's okay. You know, that's fine. As far as the success goes, I don't know how it is for

I would hate to be somebody like, you know, really, really successful like, like Al Pacino or Julia Roberts, where, know, you can't walk down the street without Michael Jackson's probably one of the best examples of all time, right? The poor guy couldn't even go outside. I, I don't, I, I don't, can't relate to that. my situation is still almost one of surprise where I'll be somebody I'll be someplace.

And someone will be looking at me and they'll walk up and they'll go, you're Robert DiGoni, aren't you? I'm like, yeah, I am. Oh my God. I've read all your, and to me, it's like a disconnect because I'm always just Robert DiGoni. I'm always just the fifth child in a family of 10. I'm the guy that goes home and my brothers give me shit. You know, I I'm the one that goes and cleans the poop, the dog poop in the backyard. You know what I mean? And there's this funny story. And I think it was Humph Clark Gable.

where Clark Gable woke up in bed with whoever he was married to and he had his dentures out and he had his toupee off and he looked at her and he said something like, how does it feel waking up to the sexiest man in the world? know, I mean, it's not reality. And so to me, it's incredibly humbling. And I'm always incredibly humbled when people say to me, will you come talk to our book group?

Josh Felgoise (20:14.467)

Because that's just an honor, you it's really an honor for it. So to me, it's just a very humbling experience. there anything you misunderstood about success earlier on in life or about like finding success or your career path? It's the same one that everybody makes the mistake about. Finding success is not about how much money you make. It's about how happy you are. And I just can't emphasize that enough.

My mother died on Mother's Day in May. And she had a pretty sizable estate. And I'm getting these checks every time we sell a piece of property. We sold the family home after 65 years. And I get a check. And all I can think about Josh is, my god, mom, why didn't you enjoy this? But she lost her husband 20 years ago. So who was she going to enjoy it with?

So I am bound and determined that I want to be successful in life, meaning I want to write books because that's what I love to do. But I also want to, I don't want to die on a pile of cash. It doesn't do me any good. I want to enjoy it with my family. I want to enjoy it with my kids. I want to enjoy it with my wife. And whatever happens at the end happens, so be it. But...

I get up in the morning and I never once say, wow, I made so much money today. I get up in the morning and I say, wow, that book finally came together. I'm so happy that that character came alive. I'm so happy, you know, that I get to go play golf today. I'm so happy that, you know, I get to go swim with my wife this morning. You know, a friend of mine down here in Palm Springs, he said, he gets up every morning and he says, this is the day the Lord has made. Let me rejoice and be glad.

And I just think that's a wonderful way to look at life. Do you think you always had that perspective or when do you think you developed that perspective? Because I don't think that's something that everybody has. No, because you're right. Because society too much equates success with how much money you're making. So I remember when I went to my five year high school reunion, everyone's like, man, you're just getting out of college. man, what are you doing? What job did you take? I'm working for a law firm. How much are they paying you?

Josh Felgoise (22:41.409)

And at your 10 year reunion, they're like, man, how's it going? know, you what are you, what are you doing? Are you a partner? Well, how much money are you making? And then you get to like your 15th and they're like, Hey man, are you married? Do you got kids? that's fantastic. They don't all of a they stop giving a shit, right? Cause they don't, I mean, it's not about how much money you're making. It's about, Hey, what are you doing? You know, and you're getting by and so it

it probably was 15 to 20 years before I started realizing that. But I would really say that it really became, it really became more apparent to me when COVID hit and I started doing a lot of online book clubs and I started realizing that these people just wanted to talk about books. Yeah. You know, it's just, and that's just happens to be what I do for a living. Right. So,

It does take some time, but it's a mindset. When you're young like that, you have to say to yourself, I'm not making a lot of money right now, but man, I'm having a great time. I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. It's interesting that I feel like you almost can't have that perspective at a young age. You just don't have the worldview to understand it yet. And it comes with time. Like you said, the split between 10 and 15 or 15 and 20 year high school reunion, it's like...

there's a shift in everybody's understanding or their mindset about life and where they are. And I felt that completely at my five year high school reading. Everybody said very similar things. It was kind of like who's where, who's doing better, who's successful, who's not, who's happy, who's not. And it'll be interesting to see what happens in 10. I think that's a very good way to formulate that. Well, you you hit the nail on the head. People will say to me all the time, how come there are not more writers in their 20s?

in the early 30s, and I say, what are you gonna write about? I mean, what have you really experienced that is worth, you I write about the epiphanies that I have in my life. Sam Hale was, know, being in a family with a handicapped child, what was that like? The world played chess was that moment when I realized I'm no longer in high school, I'm working and I have to do my job.

Josh Felgoise (25:02.553)

You I'm working with two Vietnam veterans and my life has been so different from their life. So, you know, I think, I think until you can go through those epiphanies in your life, those good and those bad moments and realize you can get through them and what did you learn from them? I think it's hard to write, when you don't have that perspective. Yeah. And it's a, it just doesn't come until you've experienced more life. Like you just have to live a little to, understand what this is all about and why.

It doesn't matter so much. You said that earlier too. You're like, things don't matter as much as we think they do. And I think that's hard to learn when you're young or that's hard to understand when you're young. Sure. Absolutely. How do you think about your legacy or do you think about your legacy? The only legacy that I really care about that I really want is I want my kids to say he was a good dad.

That's it. You know, my books will sit on shelves. Who knows for how long? You know what I mean? They might be there for five years after I'm gone. They might be there for a hundred years after I'm gone. I hope people pick them up and go, wow, this guy was a great writer. But really, I just want my kids and hopefully someday my grandkids to just say, you know, he was a good, he was a good, really good dad. He was a good dad.

I love that. That's really nice. What role does routine play in your life and in the success you've had or structure? I'm OCD. I mean, I am. I'm not terribly OCD, but man, I have a routine and that's why it's so hard for me to sometimes just relax and say, it's okay. I don't have to do anything because I'm always feeling like I'm supposed to be doing something.

because that's just the way I am. I like to work out. have different, I have a kind of a twice a week class where I do more weightlifting type stuff and then I do three days a week. do online Pilates with my sister Eileen and then when I'm down here, my buddy loves to swim so I'm going, but then when I'm riding, I go and I work out, I get to my desk, I sit at my desk and it might be eight o'clock in the morning.

Josh Felgoise (27:28.825)

might be seven o'clock in the morning, whatever time it is. And I'll look up and it'll be 2.30. I'm like, oh, wow. And I just, keep going. And you know, I write until in the spring and summer until four, 4.30. And then I give myself some time now where I'll say, okay, my buddies are going out golf and I'll go out golf and I'll go out and play nine or 18 with them. Right? And then maybe just go in and sit and have a beer together and go home.

So I am very much a creature of habit. I'm very much a creature of routine. And I do believe, I really do firmly believe that to be successful, you do have to have a routine where you say to yourself, know, I'm gonna put my butt in a chair and I'm gonna go to work. That's what being a lawyer taught me. People ask me all the time, do you wish you hadn't practiced law and you just started writing? And there's a couple reasons why not. You and I just talked about what was I gonna write about.

But the other reason is practicing law taught me how to put my butt in a chair every day and go to work. No matter how I felt, I be sick, but if I had a deposition or a trial, you got to suck it up and you got to go and you got to do it, know, whatever it is. And so I have a very strong work ethic. And I also learned a very strong work ethic from both my parents. Now, I think both my parents were a little bit too far on that spectrum, but that was that generation, right?

And so I think more people your age are starting to go, wait a minute, I don't want to work 70 hours a week. I want to enjoy my life. I'm going to make a change in my life where I'm going to work 40 hours or whatever it is, but I want time to do things while I'm young. And I think that's really healthy. I really do. I still am of the generation of, you got to go to work, you know, and you got, and I'm

Being a writer, being a successful writer means putting in the time. And I don't know how some of these people, they go to the Starbucks cafe at 10 and they kind of write till 12 and then they have, I can't do that. That's just not me. I do think what you're saying though is true in every career kind of. Like you do have to put your butt in the chair and write in a different sense in every career. Like to...

Josh Felgoise (29:53.197)

find success or to find notoriety, it is all about consistency and like it is just about staying the course and like believing that what you're doing is going to work. Do you still have times where you kind of like waiver on that belief in yourself or you falter or you doubt? Every time I start a new book.

Every time I start a new book, just I sit there and I say to him I've written 30 now or something and I say to myself my is this gonna work? You know, is this and you know, you just it's like you just said right you just keep going forward I don't outline I mean I get an idea I do some research I The idea begins to formulate but I don't know how it's gonna end. I don't know what's gonna happen

which is the exciting part for me, which is the fun part for me, but is also what makes me anxious because you're sitting there and you're going, I'm on page 15 and I have to write 385 more pages and I'm not sure exactly where this story is gonna go. But that's that nirvana I was talking about. That's when you go into whatever that place is and you just allow it to happen.

And you know, for you, I'm sure it's probably those moments when you're just having a conversation and you're just asking questions and everything is just flowing and everything just, it's just going and it's great. You know, and it's like, damn, that was a great interview that I just had. just, you know, the question. And then you have those other moments where you're like, you're just pulling teeth, right? And so I just think that's, that's a really big part of it is, is just, you just keep going forward.

You trust yourself. You have faith that you're doing what you're meant to do and that everything's going to be okay. It's not that big a deal. I think that's really interesting what you just said because I have an interview in my head that I did a little while ago that it just didn't go right. I didn't ask the right questions. They didn't give me the answers. It just didn't work. And I left that being like, damn, am I not good at this? And I know I am. I really do believe that I am. love...

Josh Felgoise (32:10.381)

Regardless of that. I love doing it. Like it is just it's something that I find sitting here talking to you like I have so many things I want to say and ask you and Talk about and there are the moments right now. We're like maybe ten minutes ago I was like, this is great. Like this is going really well and The the conversation I'm not even looking at my questions. I'm just asking you what I want to ask And like in the moments where you are doubting, let's say it's page 15 how

And like for the moment that I had where I left that interview being like, shit, that wasn't good. Yeah. How do you personally move on from that? I agree that it's not that deep and like there are things that at the end of the day, you'll figure it out. But like, how do you in those moments move forward? For me, it's different than for you. You you can't just walk away from an interview, right? I just find that I go do something else.

and I go exercise, I get the endorphins going, I get the endorphins kicking, whatever it is. I I have had moments where I'm on the golf course and I'm walking up the ninth fairway and my buddies are talking to me and I'll turn to them and I'll look at them and I'll say, I just figured out the problem I had in my book. Because if you ruminate on it, over, just keeps getting, the screws keep getting tighter and tighter and tighter.

But if you go and you do something else and you just let the fresh air come in and everything, your subconscious will figure it out. Your subconscious will come up with what the answer is supposed to be. So for me, that's what I do. I just get away from it. Now, when I was young, I would fight it and fight it fight it. And I've come again at 65 years of age, right? That's one of the things that I've learned is

Just walk away from it. Just let it go and it'll be okay. The answer will come to you. I agree. I know it's not that specific of an example, but when I can't get an idea or when I don't have something else to say or if I'm thinking of another episode, for me it is also working out. I'll walk outside or I'll walk on the treadmill or I'll lift. In those moments where I feel the same way, I'm like, oh, I got it. Or I listen to something, like an audio book or a podcast.

Josh Felgoise (34:30.603)

and then the ideas start flowing again and I have to stop what I'm doing and write it all down or I'll lose it. So it's a similar thing for me. I think that's cool to hear you say that too. I had a really interesting moment when I was writing The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hale. I think we talked about this. My agents told me I had a great series of vignettes but I didn't have anything holding the story together. What was the through line? What was the thread that held every scene together? Ten years.

Ten years that book sat on my computer and then one day I was driving to church and I looked up and I saw the steeple above the church and I said, my God, Sam wants to believe. That's what the whole story is about is believing his mother when she says, God gave you extraordinary eyes because you're gonna lead an extraordinary life. And I made a U-turn and I drove home and I wrote that opening, that forward.

My mother called it God's will. I often wondered how my mother knew God's will. And that was it. That's all I needed. And I went through and I rewrote the whole book and sort of the rest is history. So, you know, it doesn't happen overnight, you know, and sometimes it happens when you're working out. Sometimes it happens three or four days later. But, you know, I think if you have faith in yourself and in what you're doing and you are a good interviewer, I've done a lot of interviews, right?

you are a very good interviewer. You listen to the responses and you ask questions based on the responses. You don't get that with every single interview. And so when you begin to do enough of these where you say to yourself, no, I'm good at this. If something's not going right, it's not me. It's probably the person that I'm interviewing and I just, I can't get to them and nobody else would have been able to do it much better, but I'm good at this. Then I think, you know, you're fine.

That is incredibly interesting about that. Well, thank you for saying that. First of all, I really, I do really appreciate that. It means a lot coming from you. That is really interesting that it, it took 10 years for that book to work and it wasn't fitting right. And it, you kind of shelved it for that time period. Did you kind of from what you're saying, like, I think I know the answer, but did you, you at some point believe it was just going to work or did you kind of lose faith in the book? And it's funny that that became

Josh Felgoise (36:55.289)

one of your biggest best selling books. Like that is probably the book you're most known for, if that's correct. Like that's just crazy to me. my sister's grave. Yeah.

I have, I have a pretty big ego, I guess I would say. And I've always believed that everything I've written, it's going to work in, all the years that I've been doing this. The only book that has never been published is one I wrote while I was living in San Francisco. And I wrote it. I wrote it sort of as, sort of a, I don't know what I would call it. I had, I had.

dated someone and I broke up with her and it turned out she had some real significant issues and to the point where I'd be home at night and just almost a little worried about who was going to knock on my door kind of a thing. And so I wrote this story about this guy dating this girl and that's the only book that's never really worked and you know honestly it was because I wasn't writing it for the right reason.

You know, and but other than that, every other book that I've written, I've had confidence and said, no, I think this is going to work. I think people are going to enjoy this and nothing makes me happier. mean, nothing makes me happier than when my readers email me and say, I read your book, man, it was really good. Because that's that's really what all I'm going for is I just I just want them to enjoy the experience. Yeah, I think.

It's just crazy to hear that that one took so long. I didn't know that it was like a 10 year time period. Do you think you'll revisit that one or you just think that one's not? No, I think that story is written. And I've had people ask me that before. Do you think you'll write a sequel or whatever? I said no. I think I would do more like Pat Conroy did where he takes

Josh Felgoise (39:00.247)

took different episodes in his life, you know, started with the great Santini and, off, off he went. so I, you know, I wrote Sam hell and then I wrote the world played chess, you know, and you know, the next one I write might be that epiphany in my life that I always find really interesting. someone knocks on your door and you open that door and they, change your life forever. Right. And if you hadn't opened that door,

Right. And I have a really, really interesting experience with my wife who I've been married to for 30 years where, know, I was interviewing down at Santa Clara, was interviewing law students that wanted to come work at the law firm and somebody knocked on my door and I opened it up and she was standing there in shorts and a tank top with a bathing suit underneath. And she said, they moved my interview. I'm really sorry, but I didn't want to miss my interview. If I hadn't opened that door.

Right? And then she and I didn't start dating until years later. She didn't come work at the firm and years later, our paths kept crossing. But if I hadn't opened that door that day, my life would be totally completely different. I just find that fascinating. I really find that fascinating. I just feel like there's a story there. I completely agree. think.

It is crazy how one thing, one interaction, if you hadn't done that one thing, your life would be a completely different trajectory than it is now. If you hadn't gone out that one night, you wouldn't have met the girl. you hadn't, it's just, it is really, it's crazy the way the world works and the way things find their way into your life, your life and our lives. no, that I'm excited to read that when you write it, when, when doors do open and when you get an idea or when something comes to you,

How do you organize your ideas? How do you navigate all of the different doors you have in your head that are opening? Again, I just sort of try to sit down and begin to sort of, what am I trying to write here? What's the gestation of it? What's the progress of it? What's the plot of it? I don't try to think of it from page one to page 400 because I just find that, I find that I can't do that.

Josh Felgoise (41:20.481)

I just try to start with, where would I start? So, know, on something like that, what I didn't know then, but what I found out afterwards is I knocked on the door or she knocked on the door, I opened it and inside I went, my God. And when I closed the door, cause she was interviewing with my partner, I sat there for a moment and said, wow. Well, she went home to her roommates.

and she said, just met the most incredible guy. No idea, right? No idea. So, you know, that's something where I think, okay, so why don't I take, fictionalize it, but why don't I take the girl's life and that moment when she knocks on the door and take the guy's life and that moment when he opens the door. know, something like that. It's not unlike, it's not the same, but it's not unlike the Midnight Library.

where it's a series of stories about what would have happened if the person had just taken a different path, they would have been a rock star, they would have been a librarian, they would have been a whatever, you know? You're right, mean, life is a really a fascinating thing and that's why I think it's a mistake to try to figure it out, you know? And I think that only comes with experiences, is life is gonna be what it's gonna be. You can certainly influence it.

But you never know when that person's gonna knock on your door. You just don't know. Good and bad. Good and bad. Right, and spending your time trying to figure it out is not gonna get you much further. It's not gonna explain itself. No. Now that's incredibly interesting. Your new book, speaking of, Her Cold Justice, is out now. It's your third book in the Keira Duggan series.

I loved the first two, I just started reading this one. What does this book represent for you at this point in your career or where you are right now? So this is the book where Kira stands up and says, I'm an adult to everyone. Stop making decisions about my life and what's good for me and what's not good for me. I'll make those decisions myself. She makes that decision with her father, she makes that decision with her career, she makes that decision with Frank Rossi.

Josh Felgoise (43:47.082)

I think there's a moment in everybody's life where they say, know what? I like me. I like who I am and I'm going to be that person. Stop trying to tell me who to be. Stop trying to tell me what to be. Stop trying to tell me how to be. I'll do that. There's this great scene in planes, trains and automobiles where John Candy gets in a fight with Steve Martin.

And he looks at him and he says, you want to make fun of me? Go ahead, make fun of me. I'm an easy target, but I like me. I like who I am. It's a great monologue. It's one of the classic monologues. If you've never seen it, watch it because it speaks. It spoke to me and I think it speaks to everybody because it's that moment when we say, yeah, I'm different. I'm a little quirky, but I like me and I'm going to be me. And that's the moment in Her Cold Justice.

Kira Dugan says, I like me and I'm going to be me and that means I get to make the decisions now. I have to watch that. haven't seen it. I've never seen that movie. I it's a classic. No, I love that. I think it's kind of similar to what we're talking about throughout this interview. There's a moment in your life where you realize that you are good at what you do or you are good enough and you believe in yourself a little more and you stop doubting a little.

a little more. I'm really excited for people to get their hands on it. How do you feel that it's out now? When a book leaves your hands and go into the world, how does that feel for you? it's great. I did this funny video with my daughter where I said, people say that

What did I say? People say that having, right, getting a book published is like having a baby. My wife respectfully disagrees. And so, you know, I think the trite answer, the easy answer is, it's like having a child go out into the world. It's really not. But it is a moment. When I celebrate, Josh, I celebrate when I finish the first draft.

Josh Felgoise (46:11.53)

Because that's the moment I realized I have a book, it works. There's a lot of work that still needs to be done, but that's okay because I'm going to get it done. That's when I celebrate. By the time the book comes out six months, eight months later, I'm already have moved on. So it's not like it's not exciting to me. It is exciting because I get to go online and see are people enjoying it? Right. Are they getting it? Are they understanding it? Did I do something, you know, well?

And so that's, that's where the fun comes in is, is our people in enjoying the story, enjoying what I wrote. And what's next for you? Like what is, what is tomorrow? I know that like you're way past this book, but like what, what's now, what's, what's coming for you? So, Tracy 13, 12, one split second comes out in, I believe it's September and I am super excited about this book. This is one of those books where.

I had all these aha moments. couldn't figure out why a particular character was doing this or doing that. And it was just one of those things where all of a sudden I went, my God, now I understand. so basically Tracy goes back to Stone Ridge, which is the town in the book, In the Clearing, the third book in the Clearing, when she's investigating the murder of a young Indian woman named Kimi Kanasket.

Now she's going back to that time because her friend lives down there. And there's another cold case. And I get to tell the story from the time when the cold case actually happened. Buzz Amund, who's one of my favorite characters I've ever written. And I get to tell the story in 1980, Buzz Amund investigating. And then I get to tell the story in present day, Tracy Crosswhite trying to figure out what Buzz was doing and why he was doing it and what really happened.

And the whole story is premised upon a terrifying moment in Wisconsin where this young girl, 15 years old, on homecoming night goes and babysits at a wealthy family's house and she's never seen or heard from again. Gone. Simply gone. I mean, horrifying. I mean, just life changing for parents, siblings, everybody, friends, school.

Josh Felgoise (48:36.704)

community and that's the story that that's what Buzz is dealing with. That's what Tracy's dealing with. So I'm really, really excited about that book. Really excited. And then after that, and this is a good guy's moment, I'm telling the story of Patsy Dugan. I'm telling the story of how Patsy Dugan became the Irish brawler and how he came to own the building. And it's not, I mean, there's a lot of female characters in the book as well.

But I think it's a really good, strong story for young men. Like a prequel. I'm really excited to read that. That sounds awesome. I was really excited to write it. I love how it came out. And I just turned it in before I came down here to Palm Springs. so I just, fingers crossed, I really, really liked that book.

In lot of respects, it's like Sam Hell, it's like the world played chess because it's all about this one character. And the debate I'm having now is what I wrote it in third person. The debate I'm having now is should I have written it maybe in first person? So I'll talk to the powers that be and come to that conclusion. But I really liked the story. I can't wait to read that. That sounds incredibly interesting. He's a he's a really interesting character. So I'm really, I'm excited for that. can't wait.

whether it's first or third person, I'll be reading. Thank you so much for coming on. I feel like every time you come on here, I learn so much from you. I feel like you have really incredible insights that I don't even know if you know that you have, but I feel like you probably do. And I sit here and I just feel like I learn a lot about life and about career and kind of what it all means, even though I'm not really trying to figure it all out. I'm just...

living and I think it's just really cool to get to talk to you. I'm grateful for the time. Well, I really enjoy it too. I really do. mean, you are wise beyond your years. You're more mature beyond your years. And you know, what you just said, Joss, I think is the key to life, which is you don't have to figure it all out now. You just really don't. You don't have to figure it all out now. So I enjoy these conversations very much. I hope I get to come on again. I hope I get to see you again.

Josh Felgoise (50:57.196)

I think you're terrific interviewer. really do. I know exactly why you're doing it full time because you're really good at it. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thanks. Anytime, you're welcome to come on here. No matter what, you're the most frequent guest and anytime you're welcome. Thanks again for doing this. Terrific. I can't wait to read the next books.

Thanks Josh, take care yourself. That is the episode. Thank you so much for listening to Guy's Set, a guy's guide to what should be talked about. I'm Josh, I'm 25 years old and I'm here every single week, every single Tuesday to talk about what should be talked about for guys. If you liked this episode, I really hope you did. Please like, subscribe, give this podcast five stars. Leave it at one, two, three, four, five stars. Not four, not three, not two, not one, it's five stars.

Thanks so much for everything. I really appreciate that. If you have something you want to talk about that should we talked about for guys head over to guyset.com. There's an ask me anything box right there and I will be sure to talk about it. You can find so many more blog posts on guyset.com. I'm writing about dating, relationships, confidence, mindset, lifestyle, style, anything and everything. I'm answering the questions that guys are asking. I write three blog posts a day so you can find so much more content over there.

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