How To Build a Career You Actually Want with Ben Birnbaum

Speaker 1 (00:00.398)
Welcome to Guy's Set, the guy's guide to what you should be talking about. I'm Josh, I'm 23 years old, and I'm here to find all the tips, advice, and recommendations for guys in their 20s. Let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (00:17.87)
Hi guys, welcome back to guyset, the guys guide to what should be talked about. Today's episode is one of the guest episodes, every week it alternates between an episode of just me and having a guest on, today I have a guest on. Today I have Ben Birnbaum who is the co-founder of two businesses, Terawatt and Keyframe, and has remained a partner at Keyframe which has one billion dollars of assets under management right now. I read Ben's LinkedIn bio which really inspired me and

led me to ask him to come on this podcast. So I want to read you a part of it. He says that he has two lighthouses, one investing in personal and professional development through mentorship, coaching and radical candor, and two to seek out chaos. And I want to focus on the seeking out chaos part. So he goes on to say that chaos commonly follows a catalyst for rapid unexpected change, a technological breakthrough, a new regulation, a shocking event or some other remarkable disruption to the status quo. And three things attract him to chaos.

1. Change is hard. Translation change is interesting. Working through it is an opportunity to learn. 2. Change levels the playing field and this is the one I like the best. In periods of rapid change, judgment, grit, creativity, and humility punch above their weight and while nothing can replace experience, if the new world looks radically different than the old one, a different type of experience may quickly become more valuable than expected. This holds true for both individuals and organizations because most people become desperate in chaotic situations if you're willing to lean in

competition to lead is simply lower and I enjoy leading. And the third point is change creates opportunity. Novel jobs and new opportunities exist either to try to cause change or in response to it. When you go first, you write the new rules, what could be more rewarding? I also asked him about that exact line at the end of the interview. So stay for that. thought it was really interesting. So now it's back to Josh talking here. And I reach out to him, which led me to this conversation that I'm about to share with you.

And a few things stuck out to me specifically in this conversation. He talks about the importance of having a differentiated point of view in order to stand out in your current job or if you're applying to new jobs. And I really loved that. So definitely stay for at least that part. He talks about the struggle of getting started with his company, not knowing what he wanted to do after college, the importance of writing things down, which I also really loved his advice for you getting started.

Speaker 1 (02:39.17)
He mentioned that it took him seven months of bad business plans with his co-founders before they got to this successful idea. So even if you're not interested in what he particularly does, which I'll admit is way out of my league, stay for his advice. It is really good. We talk about when to know it's time to leave a job, the importance of having an accountability partner, goal setting, and really so much more.

Now I'm going to be real with you. There were a couple of parts in this podcast where I got confused by things that Ben said because what he does is extremely out of my league as I told you before, but I really, really believe that his advice is tangible and applicable and honestly accessible to anybody at any level or any job. So I believe that. So stay for the advice. If you get confused at parts, just know that I was also a little bit confused during the interview.

but I wouldn't be putting this out if I didn't think it would add value to you. So without further ado, please enjoy my episode with Ben Burr.

Speaker 1 (03:44.782)
All right, thanks for joining. How you doing?

I'm doing good, sorry I'm super late. Are you, what are you up to now?

I'm in New York, I'm in the East Village. About one year in, we're renewing our lease this month. Rent didn't go up that much, which was really exciting.

I lived at 12th and 2nd for five years. I'm at my office. I live in, where did I live? I live in Lower East Side by Clinton Street Baking Company. I moved to Boston.

Best area. Where are you now?

Speaker 1 (04:20.96)
Okay, and where's the office?

So all right, well let's, we'll dive into some of the questions I have for you. So before you've kind of reached this level of success, I want you to meet me kind of where I am. What was your first job and talk about some of your experiences and what you learned from your first job.

Yeah, for sure. So my first job was going to be in consulting and I had accepted an offer at a consulting job at PwC. I read this, somebody gave me this book called Consulting Demons. My main takeaway from the book was that as a consultant, you're like not a principal in anything that you do. And so all the impacts of that, which are super varied. Everything from, know, you don't have as much incentive to give it your all to

once you are finished with something you don't like get to see it all the way through and take the next steps and so I just hard pivoted away from any job at that point that

I wouldn't get to be a principal in what I was doing. I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm never gonna do that. And there are a lot of good jobs that people have, consultants, lawyers, accountants, stuff like that, that you're not, you know, unless it's your firm or principal, like your work is client services. And I was like, I'm never gonna work in client services. I was, just got really interested in like...

Speaker 2 (05:50.09)
The same thing everyone else is interested in, technology's impact on industries. But I don't know where this point of view came from, probably from a college internship. I always believed that technology change was just as interesting from the incumbents perspective. But at an incumbent, there was less competition for.

good jobs because everybody wants to go work at startups or Facebook or Google or whatever. it's always been a...

theory of mine, you know, where there's less competition, you can punch above your weight. It's my first job. So I just started networking with incumbents that were being disrupted by technology change. I found it was very difficult to call the executives at big tech companies. They didn't have time for me. But if I called the CEOs of companies that were really challenged, they're not getting like calls like that. And so I connected with a bunch.

And I ended up taking a job at McGraw-Hill Education. OK. And it's like 2012. They were getting really disrupted at that time by Amazon. like their distribution channels were being disrupted. There was also kind of emerging that technology was being used in the classroom.

which is a slow but secular trend. So that was, you know, kind of the two core disruptions were Amazon making distribution channels crazy and integration of technology into the business. I just got kind of lucky that I...

Speaker 2 (07:30.958)
I at a, I could tell you more about the job, but I joined at a time when a new CEO joined. I worked with the chief strategy officer as like a junior analyst on the team, spin-off and sale of the business to a private equity firm, Apollo, and then a total transformation of the business, like restructuring the org from 5,500 to 3,000 employees, and then.

a bunch of different growth strategies to build back up. That was my first gig. I was just right into the boardroom.

thrown right into it. So you talked about networking strategies and networking. Like what tips would you have for somebody who's fresh out of college or a senior in college that wants to do what you did and start reaching out to people and doesn't know where to start? What would your advice be for that person?

have a differentiated point of view. It's like kind of as simple to me as that. Saying, hey, I want to learn about what you do, or I want a job. Neither of those things are differentiated points of view. So I think this is just as true for when you're a senior in college as it is when you're my age and I'm 33.

If you have something different and specific to say, people want to have a conversation with you. So it's just not that hard to reach out to an executive at McGraw Hill and say, I'm really interested in how technology is being used in the classroom. And like, I thought I was going to work in consulting, but like, I'm looking for something more unique to do versus, Hey, you work here and I want to know what it's like to work there. Like people just aren't going to respond to that. Right.

Speaker 2 (09:18.104)
But if you show it take an interest people will people will respond to that

So would you recommend reaching out on a LinkedIn or finding numbers through a website or a back... Do you recommend knocking on the front door or climbing in through the window?

What do people definitely don't ever find any numbers never call anyone? It's like it doesn't I don't think that works at least never work for me

I think people, I find it, people check their LinkedIn messages. I also use Rocket Reach. I don't know if you're familiar with that tool. I'm not. Free tool. Like when you're on someone's LinkedIn, it's a Google Chrome extension that you just click it and it will pull up all of their contact information. Where it comes from, I don't exactly know, but like, I think a short...

specific respectful email, I find that gets a lot of responses as well.

Speaker 1 (10:15.982)
Great. That's a great tip. Thanks. So let's go to where you are now at 33. You are the co-founder and board director of Terawatt infrastructure and also a full-time partner at Keyframe Capital. Yeah. Which all of this you already know. So can you kind of talk me through the story of how those two, how you started those two companies?

Yeah, sure. So after I was at McGraw Hill, I went to a transportation company called MV Transit. Similar kind of role and similar kind of ethos, looking for an incumbent, being disrupted by technology, generalist, corporate strategy role. And worked on a number of 2016 autonomous cars were...

you know, becoming interesting and electric vehicles and Lyme and Bird were growing like crazy. Mobility became a cool venture backable category of companies. So I was working on from the incumbents perspective, like what does that mean for how we operate our business? And when I came across electrification,

We were a 25,000 vehicle fleet spread across the US, many, many locations. And looking at charging from the operator's perspective, it was clear that we were going to either have to invest a lot to bring new infrastructure to our sites or we were going to have to move. And less so than looking to start a business, I just started talking to a lot of people about how

complicated that was going to be both at my company and other operating fleets and investors who knew things about this and people at the auto companies and what they were planning for their customers and a friend who I've known since 2011 was one of the earliest employees at Rivian. The two of us started talking about that and he was you know thinking about it from the auto perspective and we ended up connecting.

Speaker 2 (12:23.696)
connecting with a third co-founder of the business who was an investor at the time but was also one of the founders of Virgin America.

And he was thinking about this change in transportation from an infrastructure and capital markets perspective. So the three of us started brainstorming, what was this market change going to be? And what the business does is we buy real estate and we redevelop it as charging hubs for fleets. And fleets use.

a, and they're bigger vehicles like a delivery van or a class a truck. have big batteries, big batteries pull a lot of electricity from the grid to charge. Plugging a hundred in at the same time is, is like plugging a new skyscraper in. and typically not at a location that had like intended to have a skyscraper's worth of electricity use. So in 2017, and this is all really one story with key frame in 2017, we started thinking.

OK, if you're going to need to put a new skyscraper's worth of electricity use somewhere, like where? And we started acquiring those properties. There's many, many.

characteristics and process that you have to go through. as we were, as we, you know, we had to raise capital to do that. Right. You know, we continuously acquiring properties, 2018, 2019, investor engagement to support growth of the business. And if you take another lens of that from our investors perspective, we were acquiring assets that had like an energy transition

Speaker 2 (14:10.222)
thesis related to them, like esoteric assets that if a certain way of the world plays out, and in 2017, wasn't like everybody, wasn't consensus that electric vehicles would take over and really take off. So they were like, OK, if your thesis plays out, the assets you're investing in increase a lot of value. So from their perspective, we were just kind of.

investors and as we sort of grew the base of assets up, we just kind of continued to toy with are we investors and do we go down that path.

Or are we operators building this EV charging business? Before we got to a final decision on that, we started to recruit the team for Terawatt to really begin to, as we started to see activity in the market, really begin to build the...

charging hubs up, which if you're going to use that much power, you need complex hardware design, effective development, software to manage the capacity across vehicles, things like that. It's pretty technical. So we started looking for the right team. We found a CEO who was formerly the global head of energy at Google. And she took Google's data center fleet from like,

six or seven to the largest corporate consumer of electricity in the world as well as Tenet Zero. And so she's like in my eyes and many others, like an energy celebrity and incredibly well fit to lead a business like this. Yeah. So we,

Speaker 1 (15:53.56)
Sounds like it.

We hired her as CEO. She runs the business. And it was just sort of a natural continuation that we kept looking for interesting assets with energy transition thesis-driven upside. Today, we're investing out of our second fund. have 30-plus companies in our portfolio that the asset may not be the same. Sometimes it might be a corporate equity or some different kind of.

energy transition related asset, but all with the same kind of framing on it. Like the energy ecosystem is changing and it's energy's relationship with other industries is going through change. And what are interesting entrepreneurial ways to use capital to engage in the market.

And you ended up raising a billion dollars, is that right?

Terawatt raised a billion dollars, yeah. Keyframe separately has raised funds, but Terawatt raised a billion dollars and announced a raise about a year ago now.

Speaker 1 (16:57.378)
Congratulations. So I was gonna ask you this way later, but how do you balance all of this? Like how do you schedule your time? How do you, like walk me through what you do in a day that can get you to do all of this?

A lot of the heavy lifting there is done by other folks, but the job of a investor and board member is the time allocation is like the central and never ending battle, you know, because if you take Terawatt as the first example, like the most important thing we've done is to hire somebody who can, you know, lead growth, build the team, lead them, drive commercial.

progress. And so in that situation, everything is working really, you know, everything is working really well. If me and my team are spending less and less time because, you know, you've, you've set folks up with the right circumstances to be able to do everything that needs to be done. And you neither, you neither have like the operating responsibilities, which of course we had in early days that they've, they've taken over and do like a

much better job than we ever could, or things that you're in disagreement about that might bubble up to a board level, like a strategy alignment or capital allocation or hiring or whatever, whatever it might be. So the dream is for an investor and especially, especially ones like us who are pretty active is to like not have to spend any time. In reality, that's, that's basically, that's almost never the case. Because businesses are.

living, you know, organisms and it's a constant whack-a-mole. I pretty much have like a my own assessment of how much value is there to be created and can I be meaningful in driving that value. That's like half of how I...

Speaker 2 (19:01.868)
the lens that I look at things. The other half is the world is constantly changing and good and bad things are happening that you need to respond to. yeah, I'm just drinking from a fire. I've heard another investor once say it's just drinking from a fire hose. you find out where your capacity is for sure. The limits are ten.

Yeah, definitely. Do you have like some like productivity hacks or like stuff you do in the morning that like prepares you for this type of role or this type of day?

I'm absolutely ruthless about what's on my calendar, you know, so this is obviously critically important. right. Nobody. If I, if I need the time to spend on things, I have to make the time. am constantly reshuffling, and constantly canceling things if they don't clear the bar. is depends on, it depends like how,

What is the bar?

Speaker 2 (20:01.07)
many things need to be done in a really short term that are...

that I'm actually carrying the ball on. But what I struggle with the most, you know, it's both like, I both enjoy meeting new people, having casual conversations. If there's, you know, something like this that I can do, like that's exciting for me, build a new relationship and like maybe someone can learn from some experience that I've had. And also like the networking without...

you know, without high expectations of just getting to know someone and what they're doing and why they're working on it and learn about their view. That's the hardest thing to not squeeze out, but is also something that I enjoy the most. And the direct value is hard to know in advance, but I've had a great track record of meeting people and finding productive things from those relationships. So that's the constant struggle is to like...

You know, it's a little growth mindset oriented, but you know, sometimes I'm feeling pressured to only do things that have like direct tangible impact. But I feel like if I don't keep meeting new people who are doing new and interesting things, then you know, I'm putting myself at risk of.

of falling behind in that way. I don't know if that's a hack, but that's the battle I'm constantly fighting is to give myself the energy and the positivity to do those things when there might be more stressful, higher pressure stuff happening around it.

Speaker 1 (21:40.622)
Yeah, it's definitely a balance and I really love your perspective on that and that you make the time for this type of thing. I think it's important. So where you're at in your life, you're 33 now. How did you get to this place where you found your passion and at what age did this all kind of start to click for you?

Um, it hasn't and I don't think that you should expect it to. I think that, you know, there's no, there's no, there are no perfect circumstances. Um, I like a lot of the things I do, some of the stuff I have to do. I don't enjoy it all. Um, but I, I get it done because like the, the big picture is, is, um, more positive. I think like.

My hack on that is if you made a list of like...

10 things about what you're doing professionally that you would absolutely love. 10 perfect characteristics. Like if you can break like five or six, you're way ahead of a lot of people, who don't even make that list, or who in their day to day only can, you know, get to get to two or three. It, it kind of was like step functions for me. I told you about the consulting thing. I really wanted to be a principal that makes a huge difference for me. I never really.

cared about what shade of red the McGraw-Hill Square logo was. I think about all the time what the shape of the F edge in keyframe is. And I'm like, should we go a little left? Should we connect those? Being a principal in what you're doing, think, totally changes my work ethic and positivity. The second thing is I...

Speaker 2 (23:32.47)
From there, I was like just super, probably more capitalist than...

mission oriented in getting into what I'm doing now. EV charging is like just guaranteed, on wood, to be a ridiculously fast paced market where demand outpaces supply for 20 years. And so finding a space that I felt like, you know, just needed more businesses to exist in it was exciting to me. And that's something that I'm, I'm always looking for. It's hard.

to think five chess moves down the line for how markets are gonna evolve. But for me, it's like if you can have that clarity and you know it's gonna be a big enough market, like that's just...

a place where if you find people that you like to work with, you'll figure out what the right opportunity is supposed to be. I didn't mention this before, but it took us seven months of me and my two co-founders making lots of business plans that we did not pursue to get to Terrawod. It wasn't like we had an idea and we started a business.

just started working and we quit our jobs otherwise and we were just working on some, probably some pretty bad business plans before we got there. And then like now I didn't end up with Tire Water Keyframe because I had a, because I felt pressure around climate or, and you know, I'm comfortable saying I was also pretty ignorant about it. I think like if with 2020 hindsight, it is...

Speaker 2 (25:16.82)
even more exciting to be.

in a place that is making a positive impact on the world and not be cut. I mean, it's nice that I can feel good about that, but it also attracts a lot more missionaries than mercenaries. Right. And that mix, if you can be in a place that's both, that's like an amazing commercial opportunity and an amazing mission oriented opportunity, it's just like, that's so much richness.

in what you're doing every day. are some of the, like I don't, I think like if I'm afforded the opportunity, I would love to, you know, have great clarity about a market. Ten years in the future, that also is gonna make the world a better place. I would love to keep doing that. Yeah. If I'm lucky enough to make it one more, I'll be, be, I like I'll be very lucky.

You mentioned that like seven month period where you didn't really know what you guys were going to do. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I feel like a lot of people are probably in that seven month headspace where they don't know what they want to do or where they want to take their career. Talk about that.

Yeah, my number one, this is probably my number one tip for anyone doing anything, starting a business or job searching, anything professionally. So just start by writing down what you do have and not being shy about.

Speaker 2 (26:49.058)
getting out in the world and pitching it to people. Related to what I said earlier about being differentiated, a lot of people ask me how to get a job as an investor. And there are just so many people who reach out to investors and say they want to be an investor.

There are less people who reach out to an investor and say, Hey, I have this really, what I think is different point of view on the way HVAC systems use electricity, which side note is something I've become moderately obsessed with. I have this, I have this thesis on this. I see, I see it could play out in these couple of ways. Like I'd love to chat with you about it. I'm taking that call every day. because, and even if it's something that I'm

that interested in, like, because that person has something, you know, at least they're pretending to have something unique they want to say that I might learn from. And that is how I would characterize that seven-month period, is like, we started with slides that had one word, you know, not business plans on them, and...

You know, we would set up meetings with anybody we could who was thinking about electrification and make presentations to them about like the way we were seeing the world shape up or product offerings that we thought might fit in. Sometimes we would talk to like a product manager at a transportation company who was like, I don't know of any idea what you guys are talking about. And then one out of every 25 meetings.

somebody would give us some meaningful piece of feedback. And then it went from one out of every 25 to one out of every 10 and then one out of every five. And then eventually people were like, what you're saying makes sense. So the big picture takeaway for me there is I think a lot of people think that you need an idea to start a business. But I think you need like the right market.

Speaker 2 (29:03.478)
and a good team, cause it-

whatever you think your idea is when you're starting a business, that isn't very unlikely the actual business. And it's going to take a bunch of iteration to get to what the actual business is anyway. you can start without the idea. And I think a lot of people let that be. Before, felt I was in this category of that would definitely have held me back. I'm like, eh, is this idea good enough?

I think that the industry is so much more important than the idea.

and we'll be right back for an ad. Just kidding, but if you are listening to this and you want to sponsor this podcast, email me josh j-o-s-h at guiset.com josh at guyset.com. Okay, back to the show, sorry. I really like what you said about starting with what you do have and writing that stuff down. I feel like we focus a lot of our energy on the stuff we don't have and how we get the stuff we don't have. So I think that's great. And it's a good tip for anybody that's looking for something or doesn't know where to start.

That's perfect.

Speaker 2 (30:09.974)
You're much more interesting or likely to get meetings when you have written things down. When you haven't written them down, or worse than that, you're that person who's just like, I'm just trying to meet people without a mission. You know, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.

How did you know or do you know when it's time to leave a position or a company? at your last place, how did you know when it was time to say goodbye and start the new thing?

Yeah, so I've quit two jobs, like two professional jobs. My first job at McGraw-Hill, I helped with a growth initiative that I was really excited about, but I didn't have the management experience for them to be confident in me leading this business unit we'd set up myself. One of the last things I did there was hire somebody to manage this growth initiative who had more management experience. So it kind of felt like for me,

Unless I had, I'd done so many things across the business, learnings about the market and like the way the business work were diminishing. So I didn't really have a lot left to learn and I wasn't in a position where I was going to, you know, get much more credentialed from a resume perspective. So it just kind of plateaued from both of those, both of those perspectives. So that was like kind of on the, I left because of the company situation on

other side of it. The second company I was at MV.

Speaker 2 (31:41.666)
continued to be interesting all the way through the very end. It was a very challenging, complex job that I had to work with different CEOs and through a complicated private equity process in a business that needed a lot of work in the middle of a lot of technology change. I got more and more focused on the most interesting aspect of that that I could be working on, which was electrification. I wasn't specifically looking to leave. I was just looking for the most exciting way to go tackle it.

Before that seven month period was like a six to nine month period where I was meeting lots of people and talking to them about electrification. So it wasn't obvious to me at the beginning of that, like what direction I might go in. But eventually I met two other people who were similarly passionate and it made it a little easier for us to all be like, yeah, this actually makes sense.

to dig into full-time, so I don't know if that's a clear answer on the second one, but like just found a opportunity that felt like I could keep going on that problem and solve it in a different way.

Yeah, I like that both of those reasons were really different. In one you felt that you were kind of not going to gain any more experience from it. And the next one you were looking for something that was going to just like give you even more experience in what you're interested in and further your career down that road. So I those are two really different reasons to leave. And I think it's really interesting. What is some advice that you have for a new or recent college grad? We've heard about a lot of advice.

But I'm just curious about like just anything for career or lifestyle, anything you have to share.

Speaker 2 (33:28.424)
Yeah, I mean the career things that I already said are like you have to be figure out your differentiation and you have to drive at it hard and fast if you want to try to do early career dynamic things you also don't need to do that and can just like get awesome operating experiences and don't need to feel like Terrible pressure to be entrepreneurial earlier in your career. Like you're gonna be working for 30 to 40 years. It's like such a long time, you

want to burn out or shoot your shot too early. The second thing I think I already shared is really focus on you know, big, big important areas of problems to be solved. I feel like big markets means just lots of opportunities. Problems to be solved means a lot of change and change is just very hard for markets and very hard for companies. On a market level that means like companies

to be started on a company level, that means the value of experience is diminished. Certain types of experience at least, and like you can, you know, try to put your hat in the ring to lead a new initiative because maybe somebody's been working 20 years longer than you, but if something's new, like they didn't do it either, so they have done a lot of things that you haven't for sure. Those are like my two like macro ones. And then more narrow, I have

I've either a accountability partner, call it, set goals every six months and exchange them with one another and talk about what they are and why and how we're progressing against them, or formally a coach. At every state minute of my career, I've had either or both of those things. Goal setting is difficult, but if you put the time into it and really measure yourself against it, then I've found it super effective. So I do that holistically.

probably too much and across my entire personal and professional life, but I'm obsessive about it and I'm constantly trying to learn from like if I didn't hit a goal, why and force it. What it does more than anything is it forces me to like make harder decisions that might be like emotionally draining or whatever to just, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:56.31)
keep myself honest about if there's something that I'm trying to get done, how do get it done?

Do you a for goal setting or do you look at it like a year, six months, six weeks? How do you, how do you?

I set goals every six weeks. usually have like, I actually have it up, like I'm looking at the tabs on my computer. I'm like, look at it all the time. I usually try to have like two or three big goals at a time. And then obviously there's a lot of things happening in anyone's life.

And I want to quote you in your LinkedIn bio, you wrote, when you go first, you write the new rules. What could be more rewarding? Can you talk about that? That really resonated with me and I really liked that.

When you're in a situation that other people have not been in before, you are challenged to figure out what to do. Nothing ever really scales unless the people after you can be successful at what they're doing. And when you're figuring out the initial rules...

Speaker 2 (36:57.87)
or decisions to be made that you don't have a framework for, you're not even sure what parameters you're supposed to be looking at something from. Some of it you're just like learning on the fly and responding to something that like you can go fast and you can let the rules be written based on what your actions have been. But you're under pressure to set good precedence that makes sense to people that they can replicate.

and have like super high moral and ethical standard or else people aren't gonna want to be inspired to follow or be inspired, you know, be interested in replicating them. So I think that's just like when you don't have a handbook on how to do it, it's just, it's hard to do it right and in a way that other people find acceptable to follow. So I just think it's like a, it's a really fun challenge.

Yeah.

I think it's also rewarding to see somebody else want to take something you've done and review it and do it again or do it better. And I wouldn't be any good at reviewing other people's rules and making them better, so I have to go into gray area. self-preservation. Love it.

You get it done somehow. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I know you're very busy. you gave some really good advice and I think people will have a lot of great takeaways from this.

Speaker 2 (38:26.583)
Cool man. Well, awesome to catch up. Yeah. Sounds good.

Yeah, thanks again. And we'll, we'll be in touch. If you liked this podcast, I really hope you did. Please give it five stars and leave a review and send any questions, topics, things you want me to talk about or things that just should be talked about to my email, josh at guyset.com j o s h at guis et.com. And I'll be sure to talk about it. Do you guys want to hear something also like really super cool? You can also follow guyset on tick tock and Instagram at the guyset T H E G U I S E T

and can also check out the website guyset.com for so much more content. shit, sorry, I think I forgot to say to leave this podcast five stars and our positive review. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next Friday. See you guys.