How Ordinary People Do Extraordinary Things

Josh Felgoise (00:00.204)

Welcome to Guy's Set, a guy's guide to what should be talked about. I'm Josh, I'm 24 years old, and I'm here to find all the tips, advice, and recommendations for everything you're wondering about. Let's get into it.

Josh Felgoise (00:17.816)

Hi guys, welcome back to guys set a guy's guide to what should be talked about this week I have back on the podcast Robert Dugoni who is one of my all-time favorite authors and his two co-authors Jeff Langholz and Chris Crabtree of their new book hold strong hold strong is a Actually, let me just like read the inner cover because I'm not gonna do as good of a job as they did Where is the description of hold strong because I'm gonna Okay, that's the first page the back

Hold Strong, as the back says, is anchored, I did read it, I promise, I swear to God. You'll tell when you listen to this episode that I actually did read it, anchored in an extraordinary true story and breathlessly recreated, Hold Strong is a one-of-a-kind novel that explores faith, courage, survival, and coming home against insurmountable odds.

If you like reading historical nonfiction, historical fiction, anything about World War II, you are going to love this book. It has everything you would want in a book. I genuinely teared up reading this book. I showed them all a picture of what I looked like around the end of the book and they all laughed and thought that's exactly what they wanted for the book. Today is the day the book is out so you can now go buy it anywhere. It is called Hold Strong and I can guarantee you, you will not regret reading it.

I think everybody should read it. think it will become I predicted it becomes a massive book. really think it's going to be huge. So if you need a new book, if you haven't read in a while, if you are looking to get back into reading and just haven't found that right book to do it, this is the book for you. Without further ado, please welcome Robert Duke. and I really tried to keep this spoiler free because this is the first day anybody can read the book, obviously. So you can still listen to this episode without having read the book and then come back again after reading. I think you'll develop a totally new perspective on it.

But yeah, don't turn it off because you haven't read it yet. I think it's going to inspire you to want to read it even more. without further ado, please welcome Robert Dugoni, Jeff Langholz and Chris Crabtree to Geissent.

Josh Felgoise (02:19.704)

First of all, congratulations to the three of you, Bob, Jeff and Chris, for an incredible book. think readers are going to absolutely love this book and I think it's going to be huge. It's my prediction. There were so many different moments where I did not know what was going to happen in this book. My anxiety was through the roof and you just really don't know what's going to happen until the end. And I want to show all three of you a picture of me around page 400 of this book. This was about four days ago.

And that turned quickly into laughing at myself in my room for how much I was crying about this book. That does not happen very frequently for me. We're going to try and keep this as spoiler free as possible. But this is my first time interviewing three people at once. And I am so grateful that you are all here. For some background, met for you guys, Chris and Jeff, and for the audience, I met Bob.

In November when I reached out about his two books the world played chess and the extraordinary life of Sam hell Which are two of my all-time favorite books and it happened to coincide perfectly with the release of His latest book before this one beyond reasonable doubt. So we did an interview on November 22nd And it's one of my favorite episodes I've done so far and now I am so grateful to be sitting with all three of you For your latest book called hold strong that I have right here

And Bob, you previewed it by saying it's a never before told story about these Japanese hell ships. And you said people are going to absolutely love it. And you were right. So I want each of you to introduce yourselves first and foremost. Bob, we'll start with you since the audience is familiar with you. And then we'll move over to Jeff and to Chris. Well, I'm Robert DeGoni. I'm a full time novelist. I think I'm completing my 30th novel in 2024. And I don't know that I've

I say other than the two books you mentioned, Sam Hell and The World Played Chess, I don't think I've ever worked on a book that had this type of emotional resonance that I, as you said, I think readers are gonna really be drawn to it. Jeff, over to you. Sure, thanks, yeah. I'm Jeff Langholz. I'm a professor in Monterey, California. That's my day job. And on the side, I do some consulting. I have a tree farm down in Costa Rica as well. And...

Josh Felgoise (04:41.614)

I've been learning a lot about how to try to write a novel lately as well. Perfect. All right, Chris, your turn. Hi, I'm Chris Crabtree. I'm sitting in my classroom room 20 at Costa Rica International Academy where I teach middle and high school English and literature. And I'm a part-time social studies teacher as well. The writing part, this would be the first time I've had anything.

published with my name on it. Congratulations. It's not so often that you see a book with three authors' names on it. So how did you guys meet? How did this come to be? Talk about that a little bit. Whoever wants to go, go, and then we'll move over and yeah. Mr. Crabtree, it away. wow. OK, so this kind of starts it. I'm going to take you right to the beginning. Although I'm a teacher down here in Costa Rica now, I

grew up on the east side of Indianapolis and there wasn't a day in my life that I did not know the name of Father Thomas Sacina. I knew from the day I was born what high school I was going to and it was Sacina Memorial High School. I even, and obviously Father Tom is a prominent character in this story and...

I was trying to put together, and I actually did kind of put together another manuscript that I was working on that had a Catholic priest as a character in that. And I started in the process of researching that particular character. I used Father Thomas kind of my flagstone guy. But what I found out is that the story that I was writing wasn't nearly as compelling as the story of this incredible Catholic priest who...

found himself or volunteered to be at the center of pretty much every event of the Pacific, mean, every major event of the Pacific Theater, he was there. And so when I happened to be at a bar with my friend, Dr. Langholz here, who was down checking his trees here in Costa Rica, we were sitting at a bar drinking a beer and

Josh Felgoise (07:02.254)

So I decided to tell him what I had found and I looked across the table at a guy whose jaw was basically in his lap. So I think it might be a great time for me to pass it to him because I really pulled his string on that day. He did, he did indeed. And Chris jokes that my jaw was in my lap. So was my beer, if I remember right. I practically spit out my beer. I'm like, what? Tell me more about this story.

And why didn't I know about this? I was partly embarrassed as well because I was a history major in college and I even took a whole course on World War II. No mention of this whole chapter about these Japanese prisoner transport ships, the hell ships. And I've watched every World War II movie you can think of by Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks and before them, John Wayne and all the others. I'm like, how did this slip through the cracks? And so

I said, Chris, we got to get this story out. got to shoot more people should know about this. And that started a journey that lasted many, years as we tried to piece together the story, different parts of the puzzle hidden around the world. And then we tried to write it up as a novel. And then, you know, fast forward several years, we joined forces with Bob Dugoni, who had made sense for a story like this in order to do do justice.

the for the writing to do justice of the quality of the underlying story. It made sense to partner with somebody who's done this a million times. Well, actually 30 times if my number is correct. And so we partnered with Bob. Bob came in and elevated the quality of the storytelling so that it would be on par with the quality of the underlying story. Because Chris and I were like first time novelists. We're like, hey, we'll write a novel. How hard could it be? How hard could it be? And it's

harder than you think. I'll say it's not hard to write a novel. It's not that hard to write a really good novel. But that extra bit that goes from good to great, that part is difficult. And Bob is a master of that. Bob, grab the baton. Well, it's very kind. But I will say this. I felt a little bit like King Arthur pulling Excalibur out of the stone.

Josh Felgoise (09:21.388)

what I got kind of handed to me was just this beautifully, beautiful story, a beautiful manuscript. The research is just beyond anything I could have ever done on my own and certainly probably not within the 10 years that Chris and Jeff devoted to it. And what I did is I just began to see the characters in that way that I'm kind of blessed, that ability that I have.

I wanted to elevate Sarah's story in the novel. But as Chris mentioned, Father Thomas of Sena is a phenomenal character and obviously a phenomenal human being. And so I felt my job was to take the characters that we fictionalized, which is basically a love story between Sam and Sarah coming from this small town in Eagle Grove.

And as I mentioned, talking with you, Josh, I saw this very cinematically. know, Josh is a movie projectionist working in a small little theater in Elk Grove, Minnesota, and the Paradise Theater, and he's showing Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies, and he's dreaming that maybe someday that could be him, you know, on one of these transports, living this life, this beautiful life. And so I saw the whole thing very cinematically, and I think it's just a beautiful story.

And I just think that readers are gonna just be drawn in like my wife was when she read it and, you know, three o'clock in the morning, the light would still be on over the bed. You know, she's still reading, I couldn't get her to turn it off. I give Chris and Jeff tremendous credit for finding these characters and helping to bring them to life.

Yeah, I mean, that was exactly my experience. I really could not put this book down. you said you wrote it cinematically and it reads very cinematically. You kind of read it as if it's a movie. And that is like my first inclination is like, this is going to be an amazing movie one day. said 10 years of research went into this book. Go ahead. Anybody. Yeah, it was 10 years. Yeah, we had to cover a lot, find a lot of missing pieces of the puzzle and bring them together. And then we had to

Josh Felgoise (11:40.418)

We had to get the historical timeline accurate and then create these characters with an outer journey and then characters with an inner journey. Those three columns just kind of mesh those together. Well, and also, Jeff, talk about all the stuff that you did, you know, going back to the National Archives and being on a BOLO submarine and all those things. I mean, wasn't just sitting at your computer. It was really, really dogged research.

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So I did a lot of, hands on research, especially the most exciting, exhilarating part was at the national archives, going through these thousands of boxes of declassified military documents, including these little three by five index cards that our code breakers would fill out when they eavesdrop on a Japanese military message. They type it up at a three by five index card. There are thousands and thousands of these.

And they needed to find certain ones that would be like the smoking gun or some needles in the haystack. And it was really exciting to find those as well as things like after the war, the U S army legal office launched a war crimes investigation into this incident, the ship involved in the crew and just finding the documents that the lawyers put together. Okay. Where were these POWs held in the ship's hold and what happened and so on. And then all the, all the

testimony that they got from the Japanese head of the captain of the ship right on down to the cook as well as the nearby destroyers. Why didn't you pick up our guys stuff like this? All the all the testimony that's out there now is really very exhilarating to hold those documents in my hand. It's unbelievable. I want to back up one second into the synopsis of the story. So for somebody that's listening that does not know what this is about outside of Eagle Grove.

What is this story about without obviously spoiling anything? Obviously, it's based on a true story, so it can't really be a spoiler. But what is this story about for somebody that does not know what this book is? Well, I'll take a crack at it because I had to kind of come up with a summary. It's basically it's a story of two young people, Sam Carlson and Sarah Haber, who have plans to marry when they graduate from Eagle Grove High School in Minnesota. And basically, you know, they're going through the depression.

Josh Felgoise (13:55.014)

They're losing everything. The town is depressed. People are leaving in droves. And they're trying to hold on to that beauty that they found in that town. They love to go to movies. He's the projectionist at the Paradise Theater, and they're watching Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire. But they know that war is coming. And so Sam joins the National Guard back in Minnesota. He becomes the head of a tank division. And FDR steps in and federalizes the National Guard.

And Sam is sent first, I think out to Kentucky to train and then he sent out to Tacoma, Washington to train. And eventually he sent to San Francisco and they're shipped out to the Philippines. Shortly thereafter, MacArthur's troops get overrun by the Japanese. And you have this horrible, horrible death march, the Baton Death March, which is not talked or written about enough in history.

which leads these men, 10,000 US soldiers, 65,000 Philippines soldiers to prisoner of war camps where they just go through unbelievably horrible conditions until they're taken out and they think as the war is winding down, they're gonna be sent free and they're put in the hold of what are called these MARU's, which stands for freighter in Japanese. And these freighters normally held equipment

parts for planes, tanks, maybe minerals for bombs. And they stuff 1800 men into the hold of Sam's ship, which is called the Arasun Maru. And from there is a journey of survival. And that's really the question, you know, that I think readers are gonna race to find at the end that last 150 pages. You how can anyone survive this, any of this? That's really the story is about. It truly is such an unbelievable

like really unbelievable story. It's almost too imaginable, too unimaginable to tell. Why do you guys think it has gone on for so long, unknown, and nobody's written this story? Why do you think it's the first time it's being told? And how did you guys really find it? I'm gonna jump in and say a couple of reasons why it might have not been told before would be that there's a good long time that some of the documentation would have been classified.

Josh Felgoise (16:18.048)

and not just at everybody's disposal. The second thing would be, it's not exactly a story that the military would want to be told repeatedly. Coming across the story, it's really unusual that just following Father Tom brought us to the underlying story. Finding him and wanting to know more about him brought me to one of the scariest places that I think I have ever been because

When I discovered Father Tom at first, I too was embarrassed that I spent four years in this Catholic high school that honored this incredible individual. this story wasn't told to me at that high school, but they named that high school after him for a reason. So the story did exist. So.

You know, I started kind of with trying to drive, trying to write a dialogue driven book about buddies on the Batan Death March featuring Father Tom, but the underlying story was much, much, much bigger and heavier than I could possibly handle. And then when, when Jeff and I got together, it blossomed into this incredible, incredible network of intertwining events that were the essence of, mean, we're talking about MacArthur.

This is the essence of the Pacific Theater is his departure and then his return and all of that happens inside of this story. But Father Tom's right there. He's right there. And so I think that's the impetus of the story, but we found it to be much more important and much more broad than Father Tom as a single person. Yeah. Jeff, over to you. on that? Well, I think Chris summarized it pretty well, the reasons why this story has not been told.

It's a hard story to tell and a hard one to hear or read in many respects. And I think that's part of it. And so, boy, we watered it down. have to say the actual horror of these hell ships, we in early versions of the manuscript, we let rip. We told it like it really was, including vampirism and cannibalism and other things in these hell ships. And that all got scrubbed. then

Josh Felgoise (18:29.88)

And then when Bob joined the team, know, it has a greater marketing sense, like what's really gonna turn readers off? And that got lightened even more. And that was really key because when you look at what readers are getting from this story, it's already a really hard story to read, really difficult in many respects. But I'm thankful our handlers, the professionals came in and made it easier than it probably would have been. Yeah, Bob, anything to add there?

Yeah, only that, you I think sometimes you leave things to the reader's imagination because readers can imagine things far better than any of us could ever write. And in this particular instance, they know pretty quickly the hellish conditions that are going on inside this ship. And to try to describe it in too minute a detail, I think actually takes away from from the story. I think it actually

in one sense, it doesn't allow the story to be reached at its fullest. I think allowing readers to use that in their imaginations, to see and smell and hear the things that were going on inside that ship, they know, they know. I mean, it's no different than trying to write a love scene, right? We can never write a love scene as well as a person can imagine one. And so that's really what...

my job was to allow the reader white space on the page that they could fill with their imagination. If I could just chime in on that, what Bob just described, Bob's a master of the craft at the top of his game right now. And he not only helped with the characterization, it's made that deeper, but also things like what he just described, the descriptions. He takes up the, Chris and I would spend a paragraph to describe, Bob will make that description more vivid, the imagery more vivid in your mind, and he'll do it in like,

one or two sentences. And so I think that's another example of how this story benefited from somebody who's at the top of his game on the team. Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's wild to hear you say that it's watered down because as a reader, there were a few moments where I had to take a step back and kind of think about my perspective and how

Josh Felgoise (20:50.156)

You know, like I feel like I sometimes struggle with so much shit, but like it's nothing in comparison to what Sam and Father Tom and all these characters dealt with. And, you know, it's just it's it's a it's a lot to read. It's a very heavy book at times and it can be disturbing. but everything like, you know, to me served a purpose and really came together to be an absolute feat of a novel. So I think it all was necessary. But in writing this book, you know, how on a mental and emotional level

How did you guys navigate writing such unimaginable experiences of these characters? I would be lying if I said that it didn't affect me emotionally and not just on a daily basis. But we did read and write the horrors that happened in there in great detail. And I actually feel very, very fortunate that we did do it the way that we did and that...

that we addressed it because it certainly internalizes the entire process that we went through. Jeff, even more so than me, swallowed this thing and we carried it with us and we still carry it with us, the horrors that happened inside there. I don't think even though we have not experienced it, we spent a great deal of time inside the hold as voyeurs watching these people suffer and it will stick with me forever.

I know that Jeff feels the same way and probably more so. For sure. Yeah, the whole going into that hole, we felt an obligation to get it right, to do justice to what happened inside that ship's hold. And the darkness swallowed us. I mean, it was really hard. I got I lost myself there for a while during the process. I did. I started drinking whiskey, I'd say I had two or three in the middle of the night working on this. I just go there and try to be there. I cut off contact with friends and family.

And just didn't, and then the darkness was inside me. And then I was hugging my wife one day. She said, what's that lump in your chest? And I'm like, I don't know. You better get, she said, you better get that checked out. I went in and the doctor said, you've got a tumor the size of a softball in your chest. We got to go in for emergency surgery. And I'm like, the darkness, it's the darkness. And I went in, they had that tumor removed.

Josh Felgoise (23:08.27)

And I'm like, we just got to get this thing out and move on with my life because I was just obsessed and it's finally out. And this story found us and refused to let go. And it about did us in. But thanks to Bob's help and an incredible team and our publisher and our literary agency, it's about to come out. In some respects, I'm just really relieved that I could get on with my life now. know, Josh, one of the things that I'll add is, you in the darkest of dark moments.

there's always light. And I think what we really did try to focus on is finding that light. Sam has a friend named Pete Chavez and Pete Chavez finds the humor in the worst circumstances. His goal is to keep the men, keep their spirits up, keep them alive, keep them going. Father Tom is there for their spiritual growth, to give them hope, to have them never lose faith.

And I think that's the really powerful message of this story is that even in these darkest moments, right, these men did not lose their faith. They did not lose their hope. They did not lose their sense of humor. And it makes those glorious moments, the light that much brighter and that much shine, that much stronger. And I want readers to really understand that what they will go through in this story is what these men went through.

such as yourself, when you're reading these dark moments, don't despair. Keep going because that light will shine through and you will find it. And it makes that ending all the more glorious. I completely agree. I wrote right here and this is the perfect transition. wrote to me. This is a story about hope, finding and holding on to hope and finding light in the in the complete darkness when there's nothing to see. How?

And you all of your research and what you guys have done and in writing this, how do you really think people can go through these hardships and still find hope? How do you think people can go through the most unimaginable unimaginable experiences and still find the light? And outside of that hope, what are the major themes of this book to you guys? you know, I'm going to jump in and do that that English teacher thing on you a little bit when it comes to the.

Josh Felgoise (25:28.354)

you know, to the light and the dark and that sort of thing. know, one of the reasons that we read is to experience example of those who don't make it to the other side and then those that do by consuming, by reading about people at the highest level of conflict, the highest level of turmoil, the highest level. And that's always going to be found in war and in soldiers. That is the highest test.

of the human being. And to see people make it through that darkness and achieve the light by example and by comparison, we can do what you did. What you did was read this book and go, yeah, like I think I got it bad. Look at what these real life people went through. And then we also see it in other people. And we can use them as our role models to guide us out.

And Father Tom was such a person who guided soldiers through these darkest times. I'll jump in there as well and just say what you've described, Josh, is kind of a message we want readers to get. We want them to realize that whatever challenges you face in your life, can you too can hold strong. You could be inspired by these folks in the story to persevere. Put one foot in front of the other and keep going and hold strong.

and you can prevail as well. I mean, I think the human spirit is, you know, throughout the course of history has shown itself to be incredibly resilient. You know, what the men and women, you know, think about what was going on in Poland during World War II, the Nazis and the persecution of the Jews, especially in Poland, but all over the place, the concentration camps that people were put into as inhumane.

as man can be, there's always that humanity that some people never lose. And I think the human spirit is incredibly resilient. I think it's one of those things, Josh, that we all ask ourselves, right? We all ask, would God put us through this? Why does God, a benevolent God, put man through this? Who knows? Who knows? But maybe it's because

Josh Felgoise (27:52.226)

when they come through that darkness, they are able to not only shine brighter inside, but shine brighter outside and help those people outside of themselves. And we see illustrations of that in the book. We see illustrations of that all over the place. Men who join the Peace Corps and go to help people in the Peace Corps. I think you're looking at two individuals that are remarkable in a lot of ways, and it's not

It's not just coincidence that they found this story. These are two men that devoted a large part of their life to helping others. And so this is a story that I think reflects that. Absolutely. going off of that, made the two of you guys, then as well, Robert, or Bob, sorry, what made you guys be the ones to tell this story? It is so intense and it's such a message of hope and...

It's kind of exactly what people need to read. think it's one of the greatest hero's journey books I've read. What made you guys the people to really like push through this and suffer kind of to tell this story for so long? Well, Josh, that's a great question. I don't know. really that, you know, nobody has asked me that in that specific manner. And so I'm going to fumble over over a bit of an answer.

I would be lying if I didn't say that I felt unqualified to do it, but I also at the exact same time, I felt compelled. I felt compelled and I believe it comes from the fact that when I knew that the underlying story was so compelling, I felt an obligation to tell it. I felt an obligation to get it out. And I did have a certain amount of...

trepidation over that, which is why I quickly leaned on a friend. What I didn't know is that I would change his, that this story would change his life and our relationship forever. And then I, that it would turn into what it's turned into now. And Josh, I'll just chime in. I'm curious why you mentioned the hero's journey and this is the, did you recognize the hero's journey in this? I did. Yeah, absolutely. Cause I noticed your interview with Bob last fall about one of his books.

Josh Felgoise (30:12.77)

The questions you were asking, Bob, were the hero's journey in disguise, the stages, and his answers were the hero's journey in disguise. And I can tell you're on a heroic journey as yourself by doing this and everything else with this, what you're doing at this stage of your life. But anyway, this story holds strong. Chris is in his ordinary world, minding his own business as an educator, and he gets this call to adventure this story, and he resists it at first.

And then he accepts the call and he attracts allies like Bob and me, and he goes through tests and so on. And then he eventually, he goes through some dark moments as well, trying to get this story out in the world, but finally he succeeded. So it's a pretty heroic story how he navigated this whole journey as well. Bob, anything you want add? Yeah.

No, I mean, think they summed it up really well. mean, life is, that's what life is all about. know, life is about the journey. It changes as we get older. You know, people that we grow up with, you know, some remain our friends, but normally what it is is you're moving on. You're moving on to other places. And that's both the scary part of life and also sort of the intriguing part of life is, you know, we never know what awaits us out there.

And so it's important to A, live life to the fullest, to not despair too much because around every dark corner is hopefully light. I like to tell people all the time that this writing journey for me was a very difficult one. I had a lot of ups and downs. I was let go by a publisher. I was let go by an agent that I had. And I'll tell you, every time that I hit the bottom,

there was another door and I just had to see it. I just had to step through it. And when I stepped through it, I found a situation that was better than the one I had been in. And so you always have to keep looking for that next door. If one door closes, look for that next door and don't hesitate to go through it, to push through it. And to me, that's what writing this type of a book is all about is bringing that...

Josh Felgoise (32:30.414)

innately human experience to readers in a very vivid way. Bob, I want you to talk about that a little bit more and what drew you into this story specifically. And then you brought forth Sam and Sarah, their characters, and in the appendix, it tells you, which I loved, by the way, that it tells you all about each character. And this book is based on true stories and real people. As Chris, you've mentioned Father Tom.

But Sam and Sarah are an amalgamation of a ton of different people from this time. So talk about those two characters specifically and what drew you to this book to create them. Well, I grew up with a father that loved movies and he used to pull me aside. I am one of 10 siblings, you know, and he used to pull me aside and he'd say, Bob, have you seen this? Have you seen this one? And we'd watch On the Waterfront and Trapeze and you name it. We watched them all together.

And one of my favorite movies of all time was Jimmy Stewart's, It's a Wonderful Life. I just loved it. And what drew me to Sam and Sarah was, you know, reading the manuscript that Chris and Jeff had put together and seeing, it's a wonderful life. You know, seeing Fred and Ginger. And, you know, call me a hopeless romantic, but you know, I think those are the most beautiful stories out there is.

How two people met. I mean, think of it. There are six billion people on this planet. You know, I have this incredible story about how I met my wife. And at the time that I met her, I didn't think much of it at all. And I look back now on my life and I realized that was an epiphany in my life. That was a moment in my life that changed my life forever. But you don't realize that. And here in books, we're able to write such a powerful story as Hold Strong.

Chris and Jeff were able to bring these two characters and I was able to help show that human, that humanness of all of us, how do you meet this person? How do you meet your soulmate? And where does it go from there? And how strong is that bond? And in this particular instance, that bond is stronger than the worst that war had to offer, both for Sarah and for Sam. It survived the worst that the world could throw at them.

Josh Felgoise (34:51.296)

It could not break that bond of love. And that's the thing that I think everybody in this world, everybody in this life is looking for. That bond that will not be broken. That's a beautiful answer. Chris or Jeff, do you guys want to add anything to that? There's no way I'm going to follow that. That was eloquent. Yeah, I spent most of the time listening to Bob there reflecting on my wife. I'm sorry I got distracted.

I'm thinking about her. So. No, that's that's good. That's that's that's exactly what he's saying. I wanted to talk specifically about a few of the other characters similar to Sam and Sarah. Bob, you mentioned Pete, who was, think, my favorite character in the book because he's the one that brought light and you know him from the beginning. The first few pages talk about the situation they're actually in. Then we kind of go back into what the backstory is and then we end up back in the boat.

and you don't really know where you are at first and you're kind of lost and then you're like, okay, now I really get it. And it's thrilling to get back there. And Pete is this character you're looking for, at least for me, the whole story. Who was your favorite character for each of you in the book? Who did you guys resonate with most? I don't think I need to answer that again. Listen, from the very beginning of this, I...

wanted to hold strong to honor this incredible person that covered virtually every wound that these people had, whether it be physical, psychological, spiritual. We had an incredibly gifted, blessed individual that was present, that was present and literally.

I'd have to go with Sam Carlson, one of the two main characters. Sam is just kind of an every man, just like Sarah's in every woman and ordinary people called upon to do extraordinary things. And that just reminds me that we are all that person. We are all just ordinary people and on our own journeys. And it was just very exciting to see Sam, this typical guy from the small town just called upon to do extraordinary things. And it's a reminder.

Josh Felgoise (37:15.554)

that we can all do heroic things. It's not big on a grand stage. You don't have to be famous. It's just the small everyday little things that add up to an extraordinary, inspiring life. And we can all do that. And I'm kind of like, I think my answer was already given. I'm a hopeless romantic. And I think Sam is a hopeless romantic. Yeah. I wanted to also throw in a Rudowski, which is a

but definitely not a favorite character. But I wanted to mention him because there's a theme in lot of Bob's books kind of about this bully, that you have anxiety about this person who is gonna come back at some point. You don't know when he's gonna strike, you don't know what's gonna happen with him. And I'm not gonna give anything away because that was one of my favorite parts of the book when you see him throughout. But I wanted to mention him and...

I don't know, was there any other people or moments in the book that you guys hold onto that you remember from writing this or that are the most impactful for you? World War II was fought by the greatest generation. And it's going to be really, really hard not to mention the captain and crew of the shark. You know, this is a late setting in the book, a completely new universe that we walk in.

that the reader is going to walk into and they're going to find themselves in a ballo class submarine under the highest levels of pressure. And to know that that story inside the shark is repeated thousands upon thousands of times during World War II. And these were a bunch of Sam Carlson's that volunteered or were asked to serve their country and they serving their country looking out for their brother.

And I think that's also an important thing for us to take from Holtz-Strauss. Jeff, over to you. Yeah, I think just back to the characters, looking behind the curtain back to the hero's journey and myths around the world, not only this hero's journey, but also certain characters that pop up. A trickster character, like in Native Americans, it's usually the coyote, that's our Pete Chavez. You mentioned Rudowski. There's often a shadow character. You're like, whose side is he on? Like in Harry Potter, that would be Professor Snape.

Josh Felgoise (39:32.61)

You gotta watch three movies of Harry Potter to figure out whose side is Snape on. And Rudowski is that shadow character for us. And so we really went to great lengths to construct a story that would appeal across cultures and across time. You know, for me, I think the moment in the book that resonated the most with me was when it was revealed that Father Tom did not have to be there.

He chose to be there. And to me, that was just one of those breath catching moments where I went, my God, he could have opted out. He did not have to be there. He was an army chaplain and he could have said, you know, I'm good. I'm not going to the prisoner of war camps. I'm not going on the hell ships. He didn't have to go.

And I think the fact that he went, it not only is incredibly inspirational, it's also a moment of reflection for all of us, right? Because I think we've all had those moments where you ask yourself, did I do the right thing? Did I stand up when I was supposed to stand up? Or did I chicken out? And that's a really hard thing, especially for men, you know, to deal with in life. But we do have those moments where

you know, for whatever reason, you know, do we, do we stand up? And man, when I realized that Tom, Father Tom stood up in the, in the most brutal moments, that was incredibly emotional for me. Yeah, I completely agree. And the moments when he's leading service in the hold as well, and there's cans being thrown at him and people just, it's, people are losing hope.

and he's doing everything in his power to keep these people alive in terms of their mindset. So I completely agree that that moment is absolutely one of the most revealing moments in the book. Were you guys able to speak to any of the actual survivors or families of these real life figures?

Josh Felgoise (41:46.894)

Because I would I'd love to know if they know that you guys did this to carry on their legacy I spoke with the the archivist that the Archdiocese of Indianapolis looking for any any real-life connections to follow the time I did I just but I did find like some handwritten the archivist that the Archdiocese had that handwritten letters about him from fellow fellow chaplains during World War two that

that gave little lines of anecdotes of what he did, but I was unable to connect with any of his family. But Jeff. I did. I had some phone interviews and email correspondence with some family members of those who were involved with the story. And it really brought it to life. And then Bob had a recent experience with a descendant of somebody who has connected to this story in a tangential way that's just an extremely powerful reminder.

that this is still an important story. Yeah, I mean, Josh, was sad. Right before Christmas, unexpectedly lost a good friend. And I had always given his mother books for her retirement community. And she'd put them in the retirement community. And so after her son had passed away, the next day, she came over and we talked. And I said, I have some books for you, Carol. And she said, I have to be honest.

I can't read a lot of your mysteries because they scare me. And I laughed and I said, well, you know what? I got just the book for you. This book, this is not a mystery and I think you'll really enjoy it. And she said, what's it about? I said, World War II. And she said, I can't read about World War II. My father died in World War II. I said, oh, Carol, I'm so, so sorry. I said, you know, what happened? Do you know? And Josh's God is my witness. She said, well, he, he grew up in Ohio and he joined.

the National Guard and he was put in a tank division and he was sent out to Fort Knox and then he was sent to Tacoma and then he was sent to San Francisco and he got sent out on a transport ship and he got sent to the Philippines. He was in the Baton Death March. Then he was in a prisoner of war camps and the last we knew he was put on a ship and he died at sea. And I mean, it just blew my mind. the only thing I could think of at that moment was I got to get a hold of Chris and Jeff and see if they can.

Josh Felgoise (44:05.518)

give her some closure. And I got a hold of them and Jeff, sure enough, was able to tell her he was on a certain maru and he lived. And then he got put on a second maru and he died and he was buried at sea. Jeff was able to give them the name of the ships that he was on and everything. oh my gosh, I mean, between her son dying and learning about her father's death, it was...

It was just a very, it was a very emotional moment. And it did, like Jeff said, it makes you realize that, you know, there are still people out there that this story is very important to. And it transcends World War II. I mean, it transcends world, although any war, it transcends what happened in Vietnam. People don't know a lot what happened to POWs and things like that. And so this is a, this is a book, as we've been saying all along, this is a book that can offer a lot of hope.

and a lot of repair to people that are still dealing with pain that comes from war. And Jeff's maintaining a website, jeflangholz.com, that has a great deal of the information of the direct research that he's done. And when you research an event like this, it opens.

Many, it gets wider and wider and wider. So, so Jeff has compiled a great deal of information that's now going to be available to the public at his website that'll show the multitude of these Marous because these events happen more than once. And we even note that in the research part at the back of the book as well. That's amazing. And I'll make sure to definitely include that link in the show notes as well. Bob, that had to have been one of the most impactful.

moments for you from writing a book like this. mean, or any book in general. I had full body chills hearing you tell that story. First of all, I'm sorry for your loss as well. that has to be such an unbelievable experience for both of you. And this book is for her and for her family. And that's amazing. I'm so happy to answer that question. reminds us that organically, this whole thing came together and the right people are involved. mean, when I read what Bob

Josh Felgoise (46:31.872)

said about his dear friend that he lost, I I wept, openly wept. I'm doing it again right now, just thinking about it again. It's incredibly humbling experience, Josh, and I've said this before when I wrote The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hell, and I received an email from a woman who said that every night her family gathers around her brother's bedside, he's dying of pancreatic cancer, and they read to him The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hell because it brings him hope.

You know, you never expect that as an author. I mean, that would be incredibly egotistical to think that your book could have that kind of impact on anyone. And so to meet with Carol the day after her son has died and to be able to bring her this kind of information, it's humbling. There's no other way to put it. It's incredibly humbling. And you begin to realize that, as Chris said, there are things going on in the world.

and that we can't always be privy to. Yeah, I mean, that's did we lose Chris? I think I think we did. I saw him looking around. I don't know what happened. Maybe he lost his Wi-Fi. OK, well, we'll see if he comes back. But if he doesn't, we'll I'll send him off correctly. But yeah, that is that is that has to be the most humbling one of the most humbling moments for a writer hearing both of those stories. That's it's amazing at your work and what you guys are doing and what you wrote.

really has an impact and I know audiences are gonna resonate with this one completely. So in the afterword, you wrote about the time perspective therapy for mental health. You wrote that we are all time travelers. Each day we recall our memories, experiences, our present and anticipate our future, but how we move back and forth across time makes a big difference in how well our lives turn out.

A large and growing body of scientific research shows that our time perspective can predict everything from educational and career success to general health and happiness to how well someone handles isolation during a pandemic. I wanted to read that because I really resonated with that when I read it in the afterword. And this to me was a major theme across the book. Can you both and when Chris comes back, all three of you talk about how

Josh Felgoise (48:46.912)

your perspectives on the time perspective therapy for mental health influenced this book and your writing in general. think Jeff can Jeff can really handle that. Sure. Yeah. The whole time perspective therapy is interesting in that it's you know it's showing promising early results for treating PTSD without any medicine. And when it stops there's very little relapse to PTSD. And so for that reason and given that millions of Americans suffer from PTSD

it made sense to put that in there just so people could be aware of it. And in our story, Father Tom represents the future, how people think about the future and hope, believing in a better future. And our Chinese character, a woman named Chu Jin, she represents making peace with your past, whatever difficult things you've been through. And our humorous guy, Pete Chavez.

He represents enjoying the moment, living in the present and being fully aware of what's happening and enjoying every day. That's a blessing. So between the three of those characters, we've got the past, present and future, and we're trying to balance that. And so people have healthy perspectives for all three. And the research is showing that if you do that, it's to your benefit, not just in life's internal outcomes, but also external. It's really the Christmas story, A Christmas Carol Scrooge by Dickens.

the ghosts of Christmas past, future and so on. It's that same concept. And it's, you know, it's, it's very, um, uh, it's, it's, uh, when I read about all that, it's, I'm a guy that deals with anxiety. I think we talked about this in the last broadcast. Um, I had a stroke in 2016 and for whatever reason, um,

the way my brain rewired, I deal with low levels of anxiety. And anxiety is basically the anticipation of the future and the worry about the future. And so it's incredibly important for me to live in the present, to not dwell on the past, to not be anxious about the future, but to just have faith and to live in the present. It's a very difficult thing to do. I never realized how hard it was until I had to do it.

Josh Felgoise (51:03.16)

but it's something that we all are guilty of. We go on a trip and it's like, what if the plane's delayed? Well, what if I can't make my connecting flight? Well, what if I can't do this? What if I can't do? And then it all gets done and none of those things happened. And so you worried about things that never happened. And so I'm really trying to live in the present. A great quote from another podcaster, he does a podcast called, I Hear You Now. It's about better communication skills.

And one of the things he talked about is he said, action conquers fear. And it's, you know, it's that thing, live in the moment, right? If you're worried about something, do it, take care of it. You know, make that plane reservation, do that thing, do it. And then you go, I didn't have to worry about that anymore. So that's become my mantra in life is action conquers fear. I love that. Josh, you know, the other thing that I'm sure you know is, you know,

When we sit down to write a book, we're looking at a blank screen. There's nothing on it. And we say to ourselves, I have to fill 400 of those to complete a book. And if that's not anxiety provoking, I don't know what is, But you have to say to yourself, a journey starts with the first step. And the first step is writing that first sentence, and then the second, and then the third.

and then the fourth, and before you know it, you've written 90,000 words and you have a book. Josh, can I ask you the same question about this time, how you think about the past, present, and future? And do you or anybody you know tend to dwell on the past a little too much or worry too much about the future or hedonistic living too much in the moment? How do you think about time? Since we've already talked about how you're on the hero's journey, let's go to the time perspective. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was going to ask you,

both if you spoke to Dr. Zimbardo, I believe his name was, the Stanford professor. I had a class with him. him about? I was in his class, yes. I would love to, if you can connect me with him, I would love to have him on. He's passed away. I'd love to talk to him. He passed away recently, yeah. Okay, well, nevermind then. But yeah, I loved what he wrote and I read a little bit of his research after reading the book.

Josh Felgoise (53:22.69)

I didn't see that he passed away, so I should have read a little bit more research. But my answer to your question, Jeff, is I think a lot about the future. I think I think too much about the future and I worry about how I compare myself a lot to what I want to be and how long it will take me to get there. I've gotten a lot better about thinking too much or dwelling on the past as much, but I think it's an effort to always stay present for me and

It's something that I'm constantly working on. It's getting better at every single day and every year. Writing has been a huge, huge help in doing that for me. I started journaling everybody on this podcast. I've spoken about it a ton. It's like one of the biggest things I recommend to every guy in his twenties. Journaling, because I think it's been the best way to find present for me. I write about my experiences basically every night, whether it's one thing I did or

one thing that made me happy or you know, whatever it was from that day. I think sitting down with a blank piece of paper, Bob, like you just said, is one of the most daunting tasks. But when you just start with one thing, like you said, whether that's the sandwich you had for lunch, whether that's the person you talked to, whether it's the fact that you called your dad, whether it's the fact that you read 50 pages of a book and you haven't read in forever, whatever that is for you, getting that one thing down and finding like the

The most positive thing from your day, I think has been the best way to keep myself present. And I've gotten a lot, a lot better at it. I really rarely worry so much about what is going to happen and more as more and more worry about the present. So I've gotten a lot better at it. Good for you. That's great. Thanks. Being on here and talking to people like you guys and creating episodes like this has been massively beneficial. I think I'd have a completely different answer if you asked me that question one year ago.

versus now. So, yeah. On that note, Josh, I think because you're on the hero's journey, there's a stage where it's the meeting with the mentor. know, in Harry Potter, it's Professor Dumbledore or Lord of the Rings of Gandalf or something. In Bob's interview with you last fall, he got dropped by his publisher, Simon & Schuster, and he met with the head of his literary agency, Jane. And the mentor said, stick with this. You got this. You can do it.

Josh Felgoise (55:46.466)

And I think you have a podcast where you're attracting these mentors, not just to your life, but to your listening audience as well. And that is super cool. That's mentorship times a bazillion. That's an amazing way to look at it. That I appreciate it. I think that's, that's exactly what I want to build here. And, that's kind of the whole point of what guyset is. It's to get a bunch of different perspectives and have a lot of amazing conversations that aren't happening for guys in their twenties. And that's the whole point of this. So you hit that on the, on the head, Jeff, thank you.

Is there anything you guys want to leave the potential or the reader with or the listener with? Because I think this book is going be massive. I'm so excited for people to get their hands on it. I couldn't have said it any better. I think this book is going to find a home and I think that it's going to sell word of mouth. And that's the best thing that you can say about a novel.

is when it sells because people are talking about it and people are saying, have you read this? Did you read this? And I think it's also an incredible, I've said this before, but it's an incredible tribute to Jeff and to Chris, their research, their dogged research, what they were able to put together. This is not your typical World War II story. We've talked about it being unbroken by Laura Hillebrandt.

meets the imitation game. But I would also say it's a little bit of it's a wonderful life. And you know what? That's always you can watch that movie every Christmas. It never gets old. And every time I hear a bell jingle, I still think of Clarence getting his wings. It's funny you say unbroken because it's exactly is exactly what I thought about when I first started reading it. And I was like, this is this is going to be that. But it's so much more.

Jeff, anything for you? I think just an expression of gratitude to the team that made this all possible. mean, obviously Chris and Bob, the co-authors, but also our agents and also our publisher and our publicist. And now you and others who are helping to share this story with the world, just immense gratitude to everybody on this team for helping to share this. It is an absolute pleasure having you guys on. This is like, it's a

Josh Felgoise (58:10.454)

It's a dream to talk to you guys anytime. Getting to read this book, finishing it last week, and then getting to talk to you guys today about it has been really something I have wanted to do forever. thank you guys for the time and coming on. I'm so happy to promote this book and have you here to do it. Anything you guys write, I'll be here to talk about it. So let me know whenever and I'm here. thank you both. Thank you all for coming on. Thank you. And as I said, when we first came on,

I've started following you on TikTok and if your listeners aren't doing that, will tell you and I couldn't be that much different. You're in what your 20s, maybe 30s. I'm in my sixties 24, 24, 24. I'm in my sixties and I'm watching your podcasts and your TikToks and I'm getting a kick out of them. I think they're great. I think you're great. So if the listeners out there are not signed up, they should be, they'll get a big kick out of it. Thanks. I appreciate that a lot. Thank you.

All right. You take care. I'll talk to you guys soon. Thank you. Thank you so much again. Good luck with the book and I will I'll push it. I'll put on TikTok too. Thanks. Okay. Talk to you guys soon. That is the episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I really hope you did. Please like subscribe. Give this podcast five stars. Leave a read. That's one, two, three, four, five stars. You can also buy Hold Strong anywhere it's available today. Amazon. I don't know where else you could buy books, but everywhere books are available.

If you have anything I talk about that should be talked about for guys in their 20s, send it to my DMs at the guyset, T-H-E-G-U-Y-S-E-T across all social media platforms. You can also email me. It's josh at guyset.com, J-O-S-H at G-U-Y-S-E-T.com, and I will be sure to talk about it. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you guys next Tuesday. See you guys.