Life-Changing Advice for Your 20s with Robert Dugoni

Josh Felgoise (00:00.204)

Welcome to Guy's Set, a guy's guide to what should be talked about. I'm Josh, I'm 24 years old, and I'm here to find all the tips, advice, and recommendations for everything you're wondering about. Let's get into it.

Josh Felgoise (00:18.104)

Hi guys, welcome back to Guy's Set, a guy's guide to what should be talked about. This week I have one of my all time favorite authors on, Robert Dugoni. Robert has written over 30 books and his newest book, Beyond Reasonable Doubt, which is the second part of the Keira Dugan series is out today. So if you want to read that, you can go get it anywhere you find books. In this episode, we talk about his journey to becoming a full time author and his career as a lawyer before that.

We talk about the time period before he found success with his first big book. We talk about his creative and writing process, how he knows when an idea is good, which characters resonate with him most, where he finds inspiration, if he would make any of these books into a TV series or a movie, and some of them already are being made into TV series and movies, and his advice for his 24-year-old self.

It is one of my favorite interviews I have done so far and I feel incredibly inspired by him after having this conversation and I hope you will too after listening to it. By the way, there's a couple of times that he clicks his pen and then like put stuff down and picks it back up. And I didn't want to tell him to stop because I respect him so much. And I just didn't want to be like, Hey, can you stop clicking your pen please? Cause he talked about how he has some anxiety and some OCD and I was like, maybe it's because of that. like, I'm just going to let him do his thing.

But if there's a pen clicking or like any weird noises you hear throughout the interview that is that just is what was happening during the conversation. So I didn't want to that out and I honestly couldn't because we talked over it. But just know you're not going crazy if you hear any of that. And it is just so clear throughout the episode that he's so in love with what he does and feels so grateful to be able to follow his creative pursuit and make a living off of it.

And I think that makes for the best conversations when you can really just tell in the conversation that the person loves what they do and he just loves talking about it. Without further ado, please welcome Robert Dugoni to Geisse.

Josh Felgoise (02:15.758)

I will I'll start recording in a second, but really thank you for doing this. I'm so excited. Yeah Okay, I'll start recording I'm in New York City. I wanted to come do this in person, but yeah, you're in you're across the country from me But I would love to do this in person. I Looked into flights. I did it was they were just a little it was a little crazy How many of these have you done

How many interviews? Yeah, like podcasts and stuff for the new book or for this like press kind of tour. for the new book, it's kind of just getting started. I'd say this is probably my fifth. Okay. Fifth one. How have they been? You know, good. Really, really good. People really, there's a lot about this book that people like, which is always very encouraging, you know? Yeah. So that's positive.

There was a couple parts of the book that, you know, as I was writing, I was like, hmm, but people seem to really be enjoying it. They really enjoy Kira. You know, it just, her deadly game just sort of took off and it seems to be sort of a buildup with this one coming out. So it's all been great. will, we'll get into all of that. I loved the book by the way. I ripped through her deadly game, the first one in like literally a weekend and I'm a slow, slow reader. You've just dropped one.

which one was that? Huh? Which one did you drop? yeah. Yeah, of course. Good. Good timing. Wow. Well done. okay. So wait, but so before we get into it, I want to give a shout out to my mom and her book club because without her, wouldn't be sitting here in front of you. I wouldn't be here in general, but I wouldn't be sitting here in front of you. because she recommended Sam Hell, the extraordinary life of Sam Hell to me a few summers back when I really like wasn't into reading and I hadn't.

read a really good book in a long time and she was like, I promise you, you'll like this book. so I would love if you could give her a shout out. Her name is Judy. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad that you did. And a shout out. What's your mom's name? Judy. Judy. Thank you very much for, for sending your son along to Sam Hell. That's been a book that has had really a, an amazing life. Her whole, whole book club. and then they, and then this past summer she recommended the world played chess, which I, is like my favorite book I've read in the longest time.

Josh Felgoise (04:37.23)

And that's when I reached out and then your team told me about Beyond Reasonable Doubt and her deadly game and I've just been into everything you've done since. great. Yeah, it's really it's cool. So what was your journey or career trajectory to becoming a author as a full time job? It's like one of those winding roads in the mountains, which you know I'm finding is sort of the

the situation for, gosh, 90 % of the writers out there, very few authors start writing at 20 and have this long projected career. I knew I wanted to write in the seventh grade, it sounds trite, I know it, it's really what I wanted to do. I had a really lovely nun sort of me aside and say, you know,

to my mom he needs more to do he's a he's he's not a bad boy he just he's bored and my mom used to be an English teacher before she started having ten kids and she had all these classics at home so I was reading books like the Count of Monte Cristo and the Old Man in the Sea and the Great Gatsby at 12 years old and

So I knew I wanted to write and I kind of went into high school with that thought, et cetera. You know, when I got out I wrote for the LA Times for a little while and then sort of that whole thing about, you should get as much education as you can, you should always have something to fall back on, all those things came into play and I went to law school, became a lawyer, went to work for a fabulous firm in San Francisco, had the time of my life, but just never had the, it was never my passion. And so in about,

1999, 2000, my wife and I made a decision together which was I would give writing a shot. And since then, it's like most writers, there was a lot of downs in the beginning and then I got a book published and then I had a series published and then there was another down. And really around 2013 when I wrote My Sister's Grave, the first Tracy Crosswhite novel, that's when the books kind of went viral and I could stop practicing law and just work full time.

Josh Felgoise (06:50.028)

How old were you at that time?

Wow, you're gonna do this to me, huh? 2013 was what, 12 years ago? So it's 50. Okay, and how long had it been up until then that you gave writing a shot until it was successful? So I started in 1999, had my first book published in 2004. Had my first David Sloan book in the five book series published in think 2006.

and then was let go by Simon & Schuster in 2000, I think 11 or about 2011. And my agent said, give me something different. And that's when I wrote the Tracy Crosswhite book, moved to Amazon publishing, Thomas and Mercer, and they just did a phenomenal job of getting the book out there and marketing it and marketing me. And I've been really blessed. I've been with them ever since. They've just been just a really supportive, wonderful publisher.

That time in your life is really interesting to me as somebody who's pursuing like a really creative pursuit. I have a full time job and I do this podcast on the side. How did you manage to follow your passion and believe in yourself during the time when you weren't successful while either working that full time job or the time in which just like it wasn't working out? did you do that? Well, A, I was very naive and or egotistical to start with. I thought

I wrote all my life. wrote journalism. How hard can it be to write a book? I can write a book. It's really hard to write a book. And so once I realized how difficult it is to write a book, I then kind of went back and gave myself my own MFA. I couldn't go back to school. I had two kids. I was married. But I gave myself my own MFA by going to the Elliott Bay Bookstore, which is a famous bookstore here in Seattle back in the day when it was in Pioneer Square, sitting on the floor of the How To section and reading books on the craft.

Josh Felgoise (08:49.698)

you know, to plot a story. Christopher Vogler's book, The Writer's Journey, Saul Stein's book, On Writing, Stephen James's book, Troubleshooting Your Novel, all those things. And it's when I finally started, I didn't have a problem working, because I had worked as a lawyer. I could sit at my desk for eight to 10 hours, I still do. But I needed to have a better focus, a better mindset on what was successful. I also had an incredibly supportive wife.

who just always believed in me and just always thought that, you know, things would work out for me. I had incredible agents at the Jane Rott-Rosen agency, Meg Rooney. They never stopped believing in me. When I got let go by Simon & Schuster, I was in New York, Jane Rott-Rosen took me out for a drink and she said, listen to me, I'm telling you right now, I've published, you know, dozens of bestselling authors and you will be successful. You will find an audience. Do you hear me? And I was like, yeah, I hear you.

But it's, you know, yeah, I heard her, but it's hard to believe it. Right. Right. But they just always believed in me. And like I said, when when David Sloan, when I got let go by Simon and Schuster, my agent, you know, my agent came to me and the words out of her mouth were onward and upward. Write me something different. Come back to me with some ideas. So, you know, it's it's really, Josh, it's really more a matter of continuing to put one foot in front of the next.

I got a wonderful piece of advice from a guy named Michael Colopy. Michael Colopy at the time was trying to become an artist himself. He was working in tech and but what he really loved was photography and his father had been an artist and his father gave him a piece of advice. He said, follow your dreams and the money will come. Follow the money and you'll lose your dreams. And I've always sort of taken that to heart.

Now that's not to say that I didn't study, that I didn't work on the craft, that I didn't do all those things you have to do, but I never thought about this as the opportunity to make a lot of money. I always thought about this as the opportunity to look back on my life when I'm an old man and say, you know what? I did it. I tried. I did it. I didn't want to look back on my life and say, I never tried. I never gave myself a chance. So I always tell young people like yourself,

Josh Felgoise (11:11.134)

People I teach in my writing classes. I always say to them look. I'm not telling you to quit your job I'm just telling you to find a way to Find what you're passionate about and find a way to make a living at it and in the interim Do the things that you're doing work full-time take care of your bills take care of your families whatever that is whatever you need to do but but there are ways to go about pursuing your passion as well and

And I think that's really all I did is I just kept putting one foot in front of the next. I love that piece of advice. And personally, I don't make any money from this. I do it to talk to people like you. think this is like the really coolest part about doing this. And I agree with exactly what you said. Pursuing what you love, it kind of just comes with it. You really find meaning in all of this. And I'm assuming that is what came with those bunch of years of writing that there wasn't a ton of success in.

Yeah, I feel really fulfilled. Every day I get up and I come in and I sit at my computer here in my office, I feel incredibly blessed. I'm a guy that has a very strong faith. You know, I'm not big on necessarily on religion, but I have a very strong faith. And I just am really grateful. And I try to give thanks as much as I can.

That that I've been given this opportunity because it's not only an opportunity and I don't want to get Too far afield or try to elevate myself beyond what I want to hear it. I think it's interesting storyteller But I'd like to believe that there was a reason for this that there was a purpose for it I'd like to believe that Sam. Hell was meant to come into the world The emails that I received from people are so incredibly heartfelt You know this book changed my life. This book made me do this this book

gave me the opportunity, this book showed me, et cetera, that maybe there was a purpose for this. so I thank God every day that I get to pursue my passion because I know that most people don't. I'm also incredibly grateful to the people who read me, who read me and email me and tell me how much they enjoy my books. They don't have to do that, but they do. And that's incredibly gratifying. And it's wonderful. It's really great.

Josh Felgoise (13:31.126)

Yeah, I mean, I'm Jewish and I completely resonated with Sam Hell and it's like, it's the exact opposite religion. It's something my mom said when she read it and I read it and she was like, you're not going to really like, you may not at first be like, why am I reading this book about a Catholic kid? But it transcends religion. really does. It's really about the coming of age story and finding faith and finding belief in all of that. So I completely resonate with what you said. Go ahead.

Yeah, no, just, you know, it doesn't matter what religion you are really, you know, I think we all have this in many respects, the same tenet, which is that there's a higher being out there, that there's a higher force out there. And let's hope there is, right? Because it would be, it'd be really, I always say to myself, it'd be really lousy to find out, this was it. So I don't, know, whether you're Jewish, whether you're Muslim, whether you're Hindu, whatever it is, it's every one of those faiths

is about faith, is about hope. And the book has brought so much hope to so many people of different faiths that it just really warms my heart. 100%. What does your, this is kind of a two part question about your writing and creative process. I mean, I think talking to somebody like you who gets to pursue a creative process is one of the most interesting people and interesting conversations for someone like me at least. So I want to start with your creative process.

What does your creative process look like and where do you find inspiration? You know, my creative process is put your butt in a chair and go to work. Yeah, that's that's my creative process. I get inspiration from all kinds of things. I might be a newspaper article. It might be something I hear about, might be something I read. It could just come to me. You know, my last Tracy Crosswhite book is coming out in May of next year. It's called A Dead Draw. And I just had this idea of

Tracy having to use her shooting skills and she's taking on somebody that is really really good and It's he it's basically gonna see who's the best. That's what he wants to do. It's a dead draw And so I went with it and I read a bunch of books and watched a bunch of old Westerns, you know 310 to Yuma The Cowboys with John Wayne and all those like true grit all those classes. What made them so good, you know, what made them so so wonderful and

Josh Felgoise (15:54.678)

So it can really be a lot of things, but I think the most important thing is understanding the craft, taking the time to read the books that teach you how stories are told. Because we can all say, look, I'm an artist. I'm an artist. I'm going to just create. But the greatest artists that ever lived, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Picasso, what they were were great students.

and they studied, know, Michelangelo didn't just take a piece of stone and create the David. Michelangelo studied the human anatomy, you know, ad nauseam until he understood it better than a doctor. So, you know, I had to take the time to learn the craft, understand what it takes to write a novel, understand what it takes to write a memorable character. And then I had to put my butt in this chair and I had to stare at a blank screen.

and say, okay, I need to fill 400 of these. Right? And just go forward and just keep putting one foot in front of the next. One of the things that I will say is my creative process is I don't stop to edit when I'm writing the first draft. When I'm writing the first draft, I like to think of myself more as a transcriber and somebody is telling me the story and I'm just transcribing it.

The best stories I've written are the stories in which the ending surprised me. Meaning I didn't know what was gonna happen. So I get a kick out of people, well they'll email me, and it's great to get the emails, don't get me wrong. They'll say, well I saw the ending coming. I never did. That's super interesting. So wait, when you say that the story comes to you, you're sitting in front of the screen and you have an idea to write a book about the Vietnam War. We'll take the world plate chess for example.

And you're saying like, how does that work? just kind of just funnels through you and you just write for eight hours a day. Like, and that's kind of the part into the writing process I want to hear about, how much like how do you start? Is it like chapter by chapter? Like all that? I'm really curious about all those details. Yeah. So, you know, years ago when I was trying to get my career resurrected again, I had a chance to read Stephen King's book on writing and I am a huge Stephen King fan.

Josh Felgoise (18:12.696)

Me I would love to meet him someday. I would be a total fan boy. I mean, just think the man is absolutely brilliant. But I read his book on writing, which was given to me by my niece in Christmas of 2004. And on the inside cover, she wrote, Dear Uncle Bob, I hope you make a million dollars like Stephen King. Love, Amanda. Well, I started reading the book and Stephen King said, here is the key to great fiction.

Here is the key, right here, here it is. The key to great fiction is telepathy. And I was like, what? And he said, how does a person sitting at his desk touch the heart and soul of a person he's never met and never will, living in a town he's never visited and never will? Through the words on the page, something about the words that he's writing and that they're reading.

there's a connection. He calls it telepathy. Brilliant, but doesn't really help you a lot necessarily. right. So, but what it made me realize is it made me realize I was on a panel with Diana Gabaldon who wrote the Outlander series and who had uber success. And at the end of the panel, a guy got up to ask a question and he said, Diana, can you explain the magic? I had no idea what he meant by that, but she obviously did. And she said,

Every night that she sits down to write after they have dinner, she goes into her office, she lights a candle, and she just waits till her characters start to talk to her. And whatever her character says first, she says, broccoli. Broccoli is green. And then she said it's like a kaleidoscope. And she just starts writing and obviously she gets into the character and everything. So for me, it's a little bit of a blend of that. For me, it's having faith.

that I've done this before 27 times, that I can do it again, that it will happen. I just need to relax, not try to force anything, and just listen to the story that's being told to me. Now, when I write police procedurals, there's a formula to it, right? There's a murder, there's a police detective, the police detective gets the call, he goes out to the scene, he starts to investigate, he gets a clue, he follows the clue.

Josh Felgoise (20:37.774)

When I write a legal thriller, there's a pattern to it. Something happens, the lawyer has to defend the client, there's an arraignment, then there's a trial, and then there's the... But what I'll tell my students, I teach what's called the novel writing intensive with Stephen James, is what I tell my students is the formula exists.

but the magic exists in the characters you put into that formula. So when you said to me, man, I read Sam Hell, you didn't say, I really love the plot. What you said was, I love Sam Hell. And that's what good fiction is about. Good fiction is about the characters that populate the stories. Yeah, that's a really good answer to that question. And I mean, same with Vince in...

that world played chess and Bo and all the characters that I like said stick with me. I think well I first ask you like what what time of day is like best for you creatively? Like when do you actually sit in the chairs literally all day? Morning. Morning is usually the best for you. And I usually am here most of the day. I'm a little OCD. I am. I'm a little I have a little bit of anxiety. And I always talk about that because I always want people out there to know that they're not alone in the world.

So many people out there deal with anxiety, deal with things like OCD, deal with things like depression. And I think it's important for all of us to understand that everybody has something that they're dealing with. So for me, being a guy that has OCD, being a guy that's a little bit anxious, it's about getting here and going to work. I feel more comfortable when I'm at work than when I'm not at work. I feel like when I'm not at work, I feel like, there should be something I should be doing, which is why I've always said, I'll probably never retire.

But that's okay, if I get to do this forever, I'll be thrilled, I'll be happy. So it's usually in the morning for me. And you the other thing I'll say is, when I wrote The World Played Chess, I didn't have the journal, William's journal, until after my son read the first draft and came to me and said, Dad, I don't know anything about Vietnam. Nobody ever talks about it. Nobody ever wants to talk about it. I don't know what happened. So I don't know why William is the way that he is.

Josh Felgoise (22:58.734)

and that was the key for me. And what I was able to do was go back and look at my life back then. And I had kept, I had been reading on the Vietnam War because I had worked with these two guys that had been in Vietnam. So I was interested in it. I still had the books. I mean, I literally went and picked up Nam, which is written in 1988 or something like that. I still had it. So it was obviously something inside of me that said there's something here. And it was my son who triggered me.

to say, tell about what happened to these guys over there so we can understand what happened to them when they came home. And that's how that book really sort of developed. How old is your son? Joe is now 28. How many kids do you have? How old are they? I have two. I have a 28-year-old and a 25-year-old. Do you think there's a reason that book resonated with him over somebody else? For me, after I read it, I was like, every guy should read this book. I just think it's a book you should read before you go to college.

just the perspective that I gained from it. now three years out of college. And it really just changed the way I saw the world. And I'm sure you hear this kind of thing all the time. But like, is there something about your kids that inspires your writing or some reason that you think it resonates more with guys or just something like that? You know, I really I really get a lot of emails from a lot of different kinds of people. I get a lot of emails from families who lost someone in Vietnam. I get a lot of emails from

women who lived in a small town and saw 13 young boys go off the fight in Vietnam and none came home and the whole town had been changed forever. I do get emails from young boys, not young boys, but high school, college who'll say, I read the book. Some districts are making, starting to make the book mandatory reading for their high school students, which is wonderful. I I hope someday.

And you really touched on an important thing for me, Josh, which was we grow up in this bubble and we usually go to school in the town we live in and then we graduate with all our friends and we go to the high school in the town we live in. And it's not until we get done with high school where we suddenly go. Well, hell, now what? Right. Right. I just I just went back to Notre Dame this weekend to visit my nephew, who's

Josh Felgoise (25:25.154)

who emailed all his uncles, and there's a lot of us, and said, it would really mean a lot to me before I graduate if you guys could come out and come here and visit and go to one of the football games. So they were playing Stanford, which is my alma mater, and six of us went. And you know, he looked at me and he said, I can't tell you how much this means to me. I'm actually, a little homesick.

And just having you guys here makes me realize that home is not that far away. So there's that for men more than women, that frontal lobe develops later in life. And so I think it's when we get to college and then when we start to realize that the world is a much bigger place, that there's much more complex problems than we've been exposed to. know, hopefully, hopefully our parents have shielded us and taken care of us and love us and all this.

But at some point you get out and you realize, wow, I gotta stand on my own two feet. For my son, was when he went to Florence. He was in Europe for six months and he realized if I'm sick, I gotta take care of it. If I have something happen, I gotta take care of it. I don't know if you're from New York City or if you moved to New York City, but a lot of young people go to New York City just for that very reason, because it's a place to grow up. Yeah, I'm from outside of Philly and the reason I say like,

I always think books find you for a reason at the time they find you. And a lot of the time I talk on this podcast about the transition period, one from high school to college, but also from college to after school and like what life is now and having to find your own way and find what this all means and what you want to do and what you want to be. And this book brought me incredible perspective. I like, I'm going to make it the next, I'm going to bring back my book club for this podcast with that book next month.

But I just think everybody should read it because I think the perspective it gives you is really incredible. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, that means a lot to me because I think that's really I never write with a theme in mind. So I didn't write thinking, this is going to give young people a perspective. But it has. And the same with Sam Hell. I get so many emails from people that were bullied when they were growing up.

Josh Felgoise (27:45.344)

and they'll tell me how it hardened them, how it made them a stronger person. It's a very humbling thing, to be honest with you, to have somebody email you and say, your book changed my life. I mean, that's incredibly humbling. just never in a million years that I think that would happen. But I also am a big lover of movies and I look back on those movies in my life that I've watched and I've just gone,

you know, my god, I'm sitting in a theater with my head down because I got tears rolling down. The arts are so important to us. I'd hate for them to be lost. I'd hate for curriculums to change and say we're not going to teach English literature anymore. We're not going to teach these things because I think we gain so much more from them like you were just talking about.

then we give them credit for. Yeah, I completely agree. And I guess this next question is kind of what we're talking about. And it's similar to what you said about the Stephen King, his memoir. I think it's called On Writing is what you said. But I read through your books. I really ripped through them. I said about her deadly game. I ripped through them in two and a half days. And I'm a slow, reader. And I think it's because I find so much meaning in them in that coming of age story.

I found you probably different than most people find you. I found you with Sam Hell and then with the world played chess and it sounds like everybody else kind of finds you through legal thrillers and what you're kind of known for. And I want to ask, how do you come up with that meaning? Does it just find you at the end of the book? How do you create a profound meaning that sticks with somebody like me so intensely?

I really don't try because I think when you try, people will know it's forced. What is important to you, what is going to stick with you, is not necessarily what's going to stick with somebody else. People find their own meaning in stories, in films, etc. And it comes from your life experience.

Josh Felgoise (30:03.054)

I was raised with a handicapped brother. I was raised with a brother that was pretty severely challenged, mentally challenged. And so that changed my life and that changed how I viewed things, that changed my perspective. So when I read Sam Hell, I read, I'm also a father and I have a daughter that was bullied. And it just breaks my heart to think that you have a young child who has done nothing wrong.

being bullied in school. Now, someone like yourself who, and I'm gonna make an assumption here, who might not be married, might not yet have kids, you're gonna see something different in it that's gonna resonate with you. Maybe you were bullied in school, maybe there was something that had impacted your life, or maybe it was something positive. Maybe you had a friend like Mickey. I never had a friend like Mickey like Sam did. I wish I did.

Because I think having a friend of the opposite sex is so valuable to helping you grow up and understand the difference between boys and girls and men and women that you can be friends without having a relationship. You know, that's I think one of the things that really appeal to the people that love Seinfeld is Elaine and Jerry had a relationship, but they stopped, but they remained friends. And I think that's that is something that all of us can benefit from.

because you begin to realize, I'm going out with this person, I consider them my best friend, but it's not gonna work out. Does that mean they're no longer my best friend? It's that kind of a thing. every book is different for every person, and all I can do is try to put the book out there and allow readers to find it and find what it means to them. You talked about those movies that resonate with you so intensely. What are some of those movies that you love and you reference all the time?

It's a Wonderful Life, The Wizard of Oz, Gladiator, Benjamin Button, Platoon.

Josh Felgoise (32:13.058)

think of some of the other ones that are out there. Moby Dick. You know all those sort of classics, Trapeze, On the Waterfront. You know just films that there was just something about them that made them. I'm not big into the Marvel and all that kind of stuff. You know if it's a good movie, a good story, I'll watch anything. But I'm really into stories about

lives lived and that's because that's really what it is. I'm at that point in my life Josh where my my boyhood idols or at least the people that I used to watch play sports are dying. know Louise Tiant just passed away he was 83. Yeah you know all these people are suddenly and I'm like Pete Rose just I'm like wait a minute Pete Rose can't die Pete Pete Rose is no Pete Rose was 82 years old.

So you begin to realize that there is a there is a there's a we all have a limited span, you know, and that can either scare you to death or it can motivate you to say, I'm going to live my life to the fullest, you know, and I'm going to use every every bit of it that I can. My my brother Tommy has on his tombstone, he wants it to say he didn't get cheated. You know, he he lived life fully.

Yeah, I love that. think that's amazing. I love I mean, I was listening to a bunch of the interviews and podcasts you've done while preparing for what I wanted to ask you. And I called my mom last night and I was like, he's such a good interview. And I was like, yeah, no shit. He writes amazing books like that. It all makes sense. But I kind of got lost when you're saying I completely agree with what you said. I it it resonates. And I think people hear messages differently at different times in their life and they find meaning in different books at different times.

When it's right and and when they need it How do you know if an idea is good? It's a kind of an inner inner voice, you know, it's it's an it's an inner voice Where a lot of times, you know things will start off with This is okay, but I I will trust that inner voice that I'm supposed to be telling this story for a reason And I don't necessarily know what the reason is when I start

Josh Felgoise (34:38.498)

but then it will come to me. And probably the best example I can give you was I wrote three espionage novels with a character named Charles Jenkins. And it's either in The Last Agent or it's in The Eighth Sister. Initially he's being chased by a bad guy, Victor, and they find that they have to...

sort of partner together in order to survive something. And so they're holed up in a hotel and Jenkins starts playing chess with him. And Victor says to him, know, do you want to play? Yeah, well, you want to play for 10 bucks? Sure. I had no idea why I was writing those scenes. None whatsoever. But I just had faith that there was a reason for it. And about 100 pages later.

Jenkins is able to say to him, no, I knew you weren't going to do something. Well, how would you know that? Because I played you in chess. And in chess, it wasn't about winning for you. It was about playing the game. So I knew. And I was like, where did that come from? Yeah. So a lot of times we talked about earlier, you and I, it's about having faith that you're meant to be doing what you're doing, that there's a reason for it. Now, let's not to say that I haven't looked at some ideas and went, no, I just don't.

I don't see anything there. don't think I want to pursue that. But I also do a tremendous amount of research before I get started. So I usually will have a pretty good idea that, okay, I think this is going to work. How much research goes into it? Like goes into each A ton. I mean, I researched until I get to the point where the stories start to repeat themselves. So for instance, in the World Played Chess, I probably read 12 or 13 firsthand accounts of

young men who were in the bush in Vietnam, not the support guys, but actually physically in the bush. And I worked with the two guys that were both deep in the bush. And then I had a friend of mine, I call him Gunner Bob, who was a gunner sergeant over there, who also helped fill me in. And when the stories started to repeat themselves, then I knew, okay, I've done enough.

Josh Felgoise (36:58.862)

I have a pretty good handle on what it was like for those poor guys when they were over there. Yeah, okay that makes sense. Do you have any characters that stick with you or resonate with you more than others? I've told you that I obviously do, but do you yourself? Absolutely. mean Sam Hale resonates with me. I'll tell you the character that resonates with me and the reason why is Victor Cruz.

I loved writing Victor Cruz. I loved writing that character. And when I got to that point in the story, won't know spoilers, but when I got to that point in the story where I knew what I had to do, I wept because I really liked that guy. I really did. liked him. I liked the message he had. Tracy Crosswhite in the Tracy Crosswhite series is another person that for me is really a great character because she embodies for

for women that you can be really, really good at what you do and still be a mom, still be a wife, still be a human being that's feminine and all these things, but at the same time be kick-ass. Kira Dugan is close to me because my mother grew up in an alcoholic household and I saw sort of what it did to her and her siblings. so here's Kira that swore she'll never work for the family law firm because they're so dysfunctional.

and she's working for the family law firm and you know beyond reasonable doubt she's not only working for the firm but she has someone from her childhood come back and needs legal help. you know all those characters kind of stand out for me. Vic Fazio in the Tracy Crosswhite series. I just love that character. I don't know where I came up with Vic but you know I just I love it. I just I love them. So yeah some definitely resonate more than others.

How hard is it for you to part with a book or like end a book? For me as a reader, when I finish one of your books, I'm like devastated. I don't want it to end and I don't know what I want to do next or what I want to read next. So how hard is that for you? It's not hard. And I'll tell you why, because I've lived with it for so long. And not only have I lived with it, I've lived with all the edits and all the editing and all the copy editing and all the cold reads. And I get to the point where I'm like, for the love of God.

Josh Felgoise (39:14.392)

Just let me move on to the next thing. I have never reread one of my books. Interesting. No, and I have reread The Green Mile probably 50 times. I read The Green Mile every time I'm writing a new writing project because I feel like The Green Mile is a textbook on how to write a great novel. King's ability, Stephen King's ability to bring in, to make a story visceral.

to allow the reader to not only see what's happening on the page, but to smell it, to hear it, to taste it, all your, is so brilliant that I read that book just to remind myself that there are more things than vision that I need to write. So when I get done with one of my novels, I'm usually done with it. I do think that when I get a little bit past what I'm doing now, and I do think that I'll go back and I will read, I will read some of them again.

the hard part is you don't, you know, you start reading and you're like, well, wait, I want to change that. I want to say that sentence. You can't right. but if I think there will be a point where I can go back and I can read Sam Howell and the world played chess and beyond reasonable doubt again and say, wow. Okay. You know what? This was a good story. I'm proud of this. What does the editing process, you just gave me this question. What does the editing process look like?

And like what do you what happens if you disagree with the editor and like as somebody who has doesn't doesn't know any of this like the publishing process and Yeah, what does all look like? I have a great. I have a great team I have an amazing team when I get done with a book then I really trust my agents first because I don't want the book to go to my editor First if there's something kind of glaringly wrong in it, you know I want my editor to really be focusing on plot and characters and stuff and so

It will go to my agents at the Jane Rott-Rosen Agency. There's two of them and they'll read it and they'll give me their feedback and I'll probably modify, make some changes. Then it goes to my editor. I'm really blessed. I have a terrific editor named Gracie Doyle. She's really intuitive. She's really bright and she will then give me her feedback and then I'll go back and I'll make some additional changes to it. Then it goes to my copy editor and my copy editor is in Boston.

Josh Felgoise (41:34.63)

And Charlotte is brilliant. so the first page, Charlotte will send me a five page letter and the first page will tell me all the things that's great about the book and everything that's great about me. And the next four pages will tell me everything that needs to be changed. I usually read Charlotte's letter and then I put it down and I walk away. And then I come back and I reread it and I go, yep, she's right. And that's about a month long process where I get it back to her. She comes back and says, well, a little bit more here. That whole thing.

Then it goes to your copy editor. Most copy editors are just looking at grammar and stuff, but I have a really wonderful copy editor. And he will literally be reading the novel like in Her Deadly Game, which was before Beyond Reasonable Doubt. There's a chess game. And he will literally say, Bob, I know chess and I just played the game. I think there's an error. Well, I consulted with a grandmaster. So I'll say, no, there's no error here. And he'll say, no, Bob, I think there's an error here. And I'll go back to the grandmaster and he'll go, shit, he's right.

You know, it's not that square. So he's really good at saying this doesn't make sense or you said it was Monday, but if it's Monday, then it can't be Wednesday. Not enough time has passed. So I'm really blessed that way. When that's all done, then it goes to a cold reader and the cold reader is looking usually comes up with 20 to 25 things that may not be right. And then because I'm so widely read, I also have a sensitivity reader. Interesting.

So for beyond reasonable doubt, they had a sensitivity reader because, you know, the antagonist, Jenna, who she's defending is a sociopath. And so they had somebody read it to make, you know, things that are going to be offensive if I call somebody crazy or whatever. And so they'll look at it for those reasons. And a better example is in the world played chess. It was read by a Vietnamese person who said, you know, the word gook and slant and that that's really offensive. It is.

And so in the acknowledgments, I put why soldiers were told those terms or given those names, those terms, and it's offensive, but it was reality and da da da da da. So, you know, there's a whole team behind me. Andrew George is my does all my marketing and stuff for me. And he's fabulous. mean, he's just really, really bright and is always finding something new and exciting to help publish the books.

Josh Felgoise (43:59.95)

I'm just really blessed to have a great team. much of that process like takes you out from the writing or are you writing throughout it like like it does that process deter the progress of a next book or all that? No, because everything is sort of timed timed in a certain spacing my biggest problem is I write too fast and so that's a problem for the publisher because then it's like you don't want to you don't want to be cannibalizing your own work

You don't want somebody to go, crap, they're going, he's got two more books out. I got to read something else. Or you don't want somebody to buy The World Played Chess, but they don't buy Beyond Reasonable Doubt because they're too close together. And it's like, I just read one of his books. But because I'm a guy that has OCD and anxiety, I'm always writing. And so they've been really great.

Thomas and Mercer and Lake Union have been really great. They've just said, look, you risk write the books, we'll work on the schedule. We'll figure out the schedule. I've never thought about it that way. I I liked your books and I just, so I now I just keep reading you and that's the same with like another author, like a Stephen King. Like I like his books, so keep reading him. So I never even thought about like the cannibalization or like the, the publishing process and how that works. That's really interesting. What are you working on now? So.

I just turned in the third Keira Dugan book. It's called Her Cold Justice. It's a case in which she's asked to defend a young black man who's accused of murder, and he's actually related to her private investigator, JP Harrison. There's really big stakes involved in that.

Hold Strong, think I was, did I mention this earlier? I was on another podcast. So Hold Strong is a World War II book and it's a never before told story about what's called Japanese hell ships. And I created, or helped to create two characters, Sam Carlson and Sarah Haber, two young people in a fictional town in Minnesota in the 1930s, right before the war. And Sam gets drafted and sent off to the Philippines.

Josh Felgoise (46:17.518)

And Sarah is brilliant in math and goes in to be the code breaker. Two guys, two university professors had done tremendous amount of research on it. And they asked me to help them get the story over the finish line. I want to give them, I want to give them a little credit. Mark Langholz and Chris Crabtree. Brilliant, brilliant research. And so that was really a fun book to write. And then the 11th?

maybe 12th book in the Tracy Crosswhite series, A Dead Draw will be out in May. So Holstrand comes out in December. Beyond Reasonable Doubt comes out October 22nd. Holstrand comes out January. And I really, that's a great book. I can't wait to read it, I'm excited. And then A Dead Draw, Tracy Crosswhite comes out in May. And then Her Cold Justice, Keira Dugan comes out.

When is that coming out? Maybe September. You're a busy guy. Is there anything you're like literally writing sitting in front of the page, the blank page right now that like today, yesterday, tomorrow? No, in fact, because I just got back from Notre Dame, visit my nephew. Yesterday, the golf course is closed. So there's no lure there. I actually did yard work, to be honest with you.

You know, the leaves are starting to fall here in Seattle and they kill the lawn and so they all those, you know, not very exciting things. This morning I got up and worked out, came back, I had an interview at 830. I'm doing your interview. I have another one at 1130 and then I'll be free for the day. And you know, I have an idea for the next Tracy book, which would be what I need to write next, but I have to explore it before I figure out whether it's going to have.

whether it's gonna have any traction. I'll have to see. And what does that like exploration look like? So in this particular instance, I had somebody send me an email saying, have you seen what's going on here? And it's about a sheriff in a town here in Washington that is sort of running his own country. has sort of his own posse, sort of his own...

Josh Felgoise (48:41.078)

He says that if somebody comes in and tries to stop him, he'll deputize his citizens. There's some crazy stuff, so I have to look into it a little bit more. But I can see a situation where perhaps Tracy gets drawn into this and doesn't realize that the good guys are not the good guys. And there's something going on here. That's really cool. So that's something that...

that I'm kind of excited about that, to be honest with you. Yeah. And that's when I know I have a, something's gonna work here. If I'm excited about it, then I'm really hopeful the reader will be excited about it. That's the- Go ahead. Go ahead. None of you. Well, just like writing a dead draw, I wanted Tracy to go back home and literally have to get into a draw with a guy that's a skilled shooter. And he has set her up for this. He wants this opportunity.

Right? And so to be able to go back to my childhood and watch all those old movies I grew up watching with my dad, know, True Grit and all that, and go back and read about Dodge City and Tombstone and Wyatt Earp and how all those things, I mean, that was, to me, that was a thrill. And I hope readers like it, you know? And so that's what I'm talking about. When I get excited about it, then I'm like, okay, you know what? I think this is gonna work. No, I was just gonna say, you can really tell when somebody's excited about something, right?

I believe if I'm excited about something, it'll come through when I'm talking to somebody like you, even if somebody that is listening to this may not know who you are. My excitement for you in this conversation will come through loud and clear. So I completely agree with that. Would you ever consider making any of these books into TV shows or movies? Everything's been optioned. I just had a kickoff party yesterday with Sony Studios. For which one?

and about the Tracy Crosswhite books. Liz Hannah, who is a brilliant screenwriter and she's like in her 30s and has already, I think, a Grammy. She's been brought in and we had a nice conversation yesterday about Tracy Crosswhite and where we would go from there and she's continuing to do some reading. The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hale was bought by a Jewish woman, producer, director.

Josh Felgoise (50:58.006)

and who was recommended, the book was recommended to her by a friend who was Muslim and said, you know, you got to read this. She's incredibly high powered. It was in her possession for a number of years, but then COVID hit. So right now it's with a gentleman back in New Jersey who has great credits and is looking to do something inspirational. So we're hope, I'm hopeful there. Keira Dugan has been bought and that's sort of been going forward.

And the Charles Jenkins books, really an interesting sort of story there. Here's a, he's a black man in his sixties and he's a former CIA officer called back into service. And I was just on the phone with the studio there and they want to make some changes, but they're excited about the changes they're going to make. They explained them to me. I'm excited about it. So for me, it would be a thrill to go into an auditorium or whatever and sit down.

and see my characters come to life. Now, having said that, I remember a story I heard about Jeffrey Deaver when his book, The Bone Collector, I think it's called The Bone Collector with Denzel Washington, who's this brilliant guy, but he's confined to a bed and he's able to figure out, he was in watching the TV show and a woman walked in and he went, who is the woman? that's his sister. he has a sister?

TV, film is a different medium. You have to think about things I never had to think about, like how many actors can you have on stage at the same time? How much is that gonna cost? No, we can't blow up that car, it's too expensive. They have to deal with all these other things. So, like in my conversation yesterday, I told Liz, I just said, I'm really excited to see your vision for Tracey Crosswhite. Because she's really got some great credentials to her, so I'm anxious to see how.

how she translates that onto a screen. When you, first of all, congratulations on all of that. can't wait to watch everything. When I'm reading your books, I see them in front of me. An example I have from the role played chess is the pool scene with the girl. And it's like, I see that in a movie. I can't wait to watch that. Same within Sam Hell, the scene with the statue. It's just like, they feel like they should be movies and they should just, they're.

Josh Felgoise (53:22.894)

they're that visceral and visual and vivid. What autonomy do you have over a book or a movie when you sell it? None. Zero? No. In reality, no. But some of the studios are really, really wonderful and they will definitely ask my opinion and some things. But once you sell it, it's really, it's sold. Now, if I was J.K. Rowling, if I was Stephen King, you know, I'd have more.

Autonomy more authority and say no I don't want to do that But I don't and I recognize that I don't and I recognize that I probably will never get to that level and if I do I still not sure I'll be the guy going in there saying no we're gonna do this differently what I always say is I'll be involved as little or as much as you want You know if you want some help identifying Tracy and who she is and what she comes from and all I'm happy to do it if it's you know it but this is your medium this is not mine I've been asking you do you want to write one of the

episodes. You know, I'm not a screenwriter. And so I'd write something and then I'd go into a writing room with 25 people your age, because that's what Hollywood is, it's young people, and they would rewrite it all anyway. you know, I'm a big believer in allowing people to do their jobs, and they obviously have an incredibly talented person for the Tracy Crosswhite series, so I'm really, I want to let her do her job.

which is to write the screenplay. Is it hard for you to give that character away that you spent so much time with? You know, since I've never had anything made yet, I can't really say yes or no. Will I be extremely disappointed if it's not made the way I want to make it? I think I'm at that point in my life now, Josh, to be honest with you, I'm 63 years old, that you know what? What I do is I write novels, I create characters, and that's what I'm proud of.

and if somebody else has a different vision and it works, then that's great too. I'm kind of beyond the point of I'm gonna get upset about this or I'm gonna get upset about that. It's not worth it. know, life's too short. I've been blessed to be able to do this and like I said, I'm excited to see how another artist takes this. 100%. My last couple questions for you. What or who inspires you right now?

Josh Felgoise (55:43.712)

Stephen King, definitely Stephen King. John Irving would be somebody else. I always say to people, people say, what are you reading? And my answer is always, I'll read anything as long as it's a good story. You know, I never really look at the author as much as I look at, is it a good story? Am I enjoying this? And it's like, some of my students write great stories and I'll ask, can I read the whole book? Because I'm so into the characters. So.

Really, I get inspired by good stories. What are some of those recent books you've read? Barb Wireheart by one of my students. I loved it. I'm in the process of reading Tammy Hogg's book called, what is Tammy's book called?

here, this bad liar. so those are the two that I'm reading right now. I'm in the process of trying to get through Patrick Rothfuss, who wrote The Name of the Wind, and another one was Total Fantasy Books, 800 page books. reading the second one. I just, I think he's really great. So I read it in a wide spectrum. If you could recommend one of your books and then...

any book in the world to someone listening to this right now, what would those two books be?

I'd probably say Sam Hell would be the first one, because I think it has a more universal appeal. And then the second one I tell people all the time, I say read The Green Mile. I said it's brilliant. It is a brilliantly written book. Okay, great. And then what would you tell your 24-year-old self? My what self? Your 24-year-old self. Follow your dreams. You know, follow your dreams. I tell my 24-year-old self that all the time, because I have my kids.

Josh Felgoise (57:26.322)

And my daughter just said to me she wants to go back to school and she wants to teach. She wants to get out of commercial real estate. And I said, I tell them this all the time, I say, find your passion and then find a way to make a living at it. And then you'd never work a day in your life. So whatever you're passionate about, like you're doing right now, find a way to make a living at it. If you love the interview and have a podcast and I hope it all goes viral and...

you're an influencer and all those people, then that's fabulous because you're doing what you love to do. Yeah. And then, well, thank you. I appreciate that and I love that advice. And then tell everybody where to find you about Beyond Reasonable Doubt and everything. Your book Beyond Reasonable Doubt is coming out today. The day I put this podcast out, will be out. So you can find it on Amazon Publishing.

You can find me at RobertDugoniBooks.com. I'm on Facebook at RobertDugoni. I'm on Twitter. I'm on TikTok. All those things. My 25 year old helps me immensely with all that stuff. You on the golf course? Yeah, I'll be on the golf course somewhere. I just got back from Ireland. I played six courses over in Ireland. It's my third trip. yeah, no, you can find me pretty much any social media handle and you can find me on my website and you can find me at Amazon Publishing.

as well and tell everybody what beyond reasonable doubt is about. beyond reasonable doubt, Keira Dugan is a mid thirties, criminal defense lawyer who has left the prosecuting attorney's office in Seattle and gone back to the family law business. Her father was a famous defense lawyer named Patsy Dugan. but he was also a, an alcoholic and alcoholism has caught up to him in her deadly game.

And Kira has all of his skills. She's intuitive, she's smart, she's a chess prodigy. And so she's taken over the trial in the family practice. And beyond reasonable doubt, a woman comes to the law firm seeking to be defended. Her name is Jenna Bernstein. She's a childhood friend of Kira's, although Kira never liked her because she thinks that she's a liar and a sociopath. And now,

Josh Felgoise (59:43.522)

Jenna has been accused of killing the CFO of her biotech company and all the evidence seems to indicate she did do that. And Kira has to step in and defend her. And so that's sort of the book. And for anybody considering it, you will rip through these books. The first two chapters, it brings you right in. It's really incredible. Thank you so much for being on today. Thank you. It was really incredible to meet you.

just this conversation was really everything I wanted it to be. So thank you so much. And I look forward to reading everything you write. So thank you again. Thanks. Thank you, Josh. It was nice to be on. And I appreciate you having me. I'll come on any time so we can do this again. I would love to have you on any time. Well, I'll have you back on for Hold Strong. I'd love that. Oh, that'd be great. OK. Then I'll see you in January. See you in January. All right. Take care. Have a good one.

YouTube. That is the episode. Thank you so much for listening to guys said a guy's guide to what should be talked about. I'm Josh. I'm 24 years old and every week I come on here to talk about what should be talked about for guys in their twenties. If you're something we're talking about that should be talked about sent to my email. It's josh at guyset.com j o s h at gu i s e t dot com or to my dms on Instagram, tick tock, all the social medias at the guys set th e g u i s e t. Please get this podcast five stars. That's one, two, three, four, five and leave a review.

Thank you so much for listening, I genuinely appreciate it and I will see you guys next Tuesday. See you guys.