The Conversations Men Avoid with Gabriel Ebert & Hagen Oliveras

After I saw the show, John Proctor is the villain on Broadway, I immediately wanted to come on here and talk to you guys about the show and the behavior of the guys in the show, because that is exactly the conversation that Guy Set exists for. This play kind of forces you to confront the uncomfortable stuff, the ways that guys hurt people, often without even realizing it.

the toxic behaviors that we excuse or we ignore, the moments we've all had where we've maybe been the problem and either didn't want to admit it or didn't realize we were being the problem. It kind of makes you realize, I know that guy or shit, I've been that guy. I had the incredible opportunity to talk to two of the three actors in the show, Gabriel, who plays Mr. Smith, a beloved high school teacher who is not who he appears to be,

and Hagen who plays Lee, a troubled teenage boy who represents a lot of the toxic behaviors we see in young men. We talk about what it's like to play these characters eight shows a week, how it's changed their perspective on being good men, and what other guys can learn from this story. I loved this conversation so much. It is exactly what what guyset is for and it's something like I've never heard before.

It's a conversation I've always wanted to have on here, but never really knew how to have or the right angle to have it. And when I saw this show and had this opportunity, I thought it was the perfect time to do it and the perfect way to do it, to talk about these characters with these guys. And I just thought it was really, really, really cool. So I'm so happy I got to do this. And if you get the chance to go see John Proctor's villain on Broadway, I couldn't recommend it more. It's running through September 7th. They didn't even tell me to do that. I just really loved it so much.

and they're making it into a movie, so I hope everyone gets to see it at some point. Without further ado, please welcome Gabriel Ebert and Hagen Oliveras to Gatsby.

Josh Felgoise (02:27.148)

Nice to meet you both. Thank you for doing this. Welcome to Guy Set. You both star in the Broadway play, John Proctor is the Villain. And I think it's really cool that we're doing this because you're both kind of the villains or the antagonists in the show. So how did you guys get here and what was your path to Broadway? Gabe, we'll start with you. Well, I came to to this particular show. My childhood best friend, I grew up outside of Denver in Colorado and my childhood best friend, we went to middle school and high school together.

is a great playwright and he studied playwriting at UT Austin and one of his classmates was Kimberly Belflower who is the playwright of John Proctor is the Villain. So I actually got to meet her back in the day before she wrote this play when they were in college and we became pals and then when she wrote this play I was so pleased with its success in the regions and colleges and high schools and then when it came around that I had an opportunity to play this character.

on Broadway, was just an incredible full circle moment in my life and a real dream come true. Not only because I'd known her before she wrote it, but also the director of the play is my wife. really? And there they've become great friends. And so it's like really interwoven into all these different facets of my life, this play. And it's really powerful. And then to answer the other part of your question, how did I come to Broadway?

I've kind of just always been a performer. My father's a minister, so I grew up in the church and I was always singing and performing at the church when I was a boy. And then I sort of moved into doing stuff with choirs and I went to a performing arts high school in Denver, Colorado. And then that led me to audition for theater programs in college. I went to the Juilliard School and studied drama. And I've just stuck around in New York ever since doing...

Mostly theater, but some film and TV as well, but I really am a theater animal and I love the stage. I always try to be a part of good material and material that connects with the people, but you don't always get the privilege of working on something like that. And this is one of those rare...

Josh Felgoise (04:42.922)

rare opportunities where it's an incredibly successful show commercially, but it's also an incredibly fulfilling show artistically. And it also really seems to be doing something profound for the audience who's watching it. So it's a privilege. That's really, really well said. Hagen, what about you? I met Donya. So the the first professional gig I did in New York was a play called Jonah. And that's where I met Donya. She directed that play. And shortly after that, I

or at the end of that run, I booked a play called Our Town, and that was my first Broadway play. And it was kind of kismet that I got the audition for a different character actually in this play, the other young boy. And I don't know, I got that audition from my manager and I read the script and I just was like, I don't...

I don't think that I'm that character. don't think I'm going to play that character in this production. That character was Mason. And my reps were just like, no, you are. You know, they're trying to be encouraging, supportive, trying to get you to just like do the thing and do your best. And I was just like, I think I'm a Lee. I don't know why, but I think I am. And I prepped those sides.

for that character, even though I hadn't been asked to. I really prepared that character. I prepared the Mason sides as well, but I knew that that wasn't going to be my place. And so when I got into the audition and I met Kimberly and we were talking and laughing, it was really wonderful to be in a room. That's the first time. I I haven't done that many plays yet. So that was the first time that I entered an audition space and I knew the people that were there. I had a relationship with them. I'd spent a lot of time with them and I did the Mason sides and then

Donya stopped me and she went Can I give you the lee sides and I was like sure and then she's like, okay here they are if you want to go take a step out like we'll give you like 10-15 minutes and you can prepare them and I was just like I don't need it I already did and I already had the sides and I marked them up and I did it and It really felt like a in a similar way full full circle moment where

Josh Felgoise (07:02.636)

I got to have this experience with Jonah that for me was, that was a play I did previously with Donya that was very, I think Donya would put it as, she really helped me come into myself as an artist. She helped me coalesce sort of everything I had learned in school. And I got to step away from that, go do another play, have another experience and then come back sort of. And yeah, and get to show her what I've learned but then also learn some more.

And then also getting to work on his play I've worked with the same the same intimacy coordinator as the previous play and the same vocal coach Yeah, so in a similar way. It's also full circle I mean, I'm not working with my wife and you know I haven't worked on this place since 2018 or whenever Gabe started with it, but It felt like a really special moment, and I remember doing the callback for this character It was literally the day of the election and I I had held out hope for the election, but I

I kind of figured where it was going. I did the audition in the middle of that day and then I went home and I just sat and was like sort of looking at the news and whatever. And I'm very connected. a very online person. So I was watching all the online threads, all the subreddits. And I drafted this text to Danya that sort of came out of that worry and that

that frustration and that pain and I couldn't tell you exactly what I said but essentially the idea was this character Lee is very troubled and I think in this play yes he is kind of he's sort of like the villain in training that's what Gabriel usually says never that's what he says when we meet other people like backstage and stuff

But I think that if you write boys like this off, and honestly boys like Mr. Smith too, though his transgression is a little different, it's quite a bit different, you end up in a situation where we're ending up now where a lot of people don't feel listened to because they feel like they've been judged for the worse of them. But I'm sure we'll get into that. So that's how I got to the play. And in terms of acting, in high school I was homeschooled until middle school.

Josh Felgoise (09:24.332)

I was a loner in middle school. was sort of acclimating to how to socialize. And then in high school, there was this girl I had a crush on and she was in drama club. And so I went to drama club to get close to her. And it was basically history from there. I I just, fell in love with it. It gave me a community, I think. That was the first thing that it did for me. And then it gave me somewhere to put my mind before that, you know, the most.

I've ever focused on something was like playing League of Legends and getting really good at that. And this gave me something to get good at that I felt really proud of and gave me such a rush. Such a good answer. Yeah. Yeah. No, sorry. Keep going. yeah. And then, you know, and I just worked and I worked hard and I started singing and acting and I just thought I'm a very competitive person. So I tried to get as good as I could. And then I went to

I went to Carnegie Mellon for university. was lucky enough to get in there. And then it keeps going. Hagen, I think your first answer to my question is kind of a really perfect transition into what I wanted to talk to you guys about. Because when I first saw the show, I immediately thought of what I do here at GuySat. And the point of this podcast and when I started it...

is as a guy's guide to what should be talked about. And I think the conversation that you guys are having in this show and the script and the purpose and the meaning behind it are all things that guys don't talk about. I think your characters are so different in terms of like how they're troubled. But I think that in the context of your characters, it's an incredibly interesting conversation to have and an incredibly important one. And obviously the three of us aren't going to solve.

all of the problems that guys have ever created in the world. But I do think it's a really great place to start a conversation like this. And it's just a cool conversation to have. So I appreciate you guys being here in the first place. And it's a conversation I haven't had here yet. So how has playing these roles made you think differently about like traditional masculinity and what it means to be a good man or a good guy? we'll start with you. Wow.

Josh Felgoise (11:42.11)

One of the things that I think is really powerful about the work environment that we're in is that all of the leaders are women in the space. The playwright is a woman, the director, every single designer was a woman, our stage manager is a woman. it's the impetus of the entire experience is an empowering one for women. And I think the experience of the audience is an empowering one for women. And so though I...

have to play, for lack of a better word, the villain. Or I have to display these sort of true but despicable parts of masculinity. I think it's important to not, I think it's important to be honest. And one of the things that I really, that is a pet peeve of mine, is actors who protect themselves and compromise the plays that they're in.

someone who's asked to play a terrible racist or a sexual predator or a killer, something despicable, something gross, something dark. actors, of course, naturally want to be liked. And so there's this innate sort of almost primal voice that says, oh, but it's not me. I'm not this guy. I'm not the bad one. I'm a good white. I'm a good boy.

I see actors doing that while they're playing the characters. And to me, the irony is that you end up compromising the artists of color. You end up compromising the women in this case. And so the last thing that I would want to do is try to protect myself and therefore shortchange the story. Super interesting. I don't know that I've learned something new about being a man.

I think that the play is so beautifully written and it's so deftly directed. Well, this is one thing I learned. Like as an actor, I wanted to be clever and I wanted to sort of just put in little seeds of foreshadowing. When we were in rehearsal, I thought, what if I touch her shoulder here? Ooh, what if I do this little thing? And I have to give a lot of credit to Danya, our director, and to Kimberly as well, for just saying, don't do that. Keep them golden. These guys get away with it for their entire lives.

Josh Felgoise (14:08.866)

The way that we can really serve the show is to actually have the audience trust you and feel safe with you. And then when the betrayal happens, they will feel like these girls feel. I actually have to use a lot of myself in this character. I actually have to really, rather than sort of putting a character over me like a shell, I have to kind of use the parts of me that are trustworthy and that are good in order to be able to...

tell this story because as we see in politics, as we see in showbiz, predatory men can be very successful. And as we saw during the Me Too era, a lot of them made us scratch our heads and say, him? That guy, really? I liked that guy. man, not that guy. There was a lot of disappointment in my mind. Him? And so I feel it's important to give the audience that experience. not him.

And I think they do in this show I mean like I've seen it twice and the shock that comes over the audience When they find out and by the way, I should have started by saying can you guys describe the show? So can one of you take that on and say what the show is about and kind of what? Happens or for somebody that doesn't know or like any of that you guys can go back and forth whatever you want to do You want to take a swing Hagen? Oh God spoilers, I guess like you want to yeah, I think that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, okay

We're going spoil it in this conversation. Yeah, exactly. We're about toxic guys. Correct. John Proctor is the villain of the play about four young girls who set out to establish a feminist club in the high school of their quote unquote one stop lights town in Appalachian, Georgia. Amidst the Me Too movement.

And or inspired by the me to movement I should say they are inspired by the me to movement to start this feminist club and with the help of their wonderful teacher, Mr. However, a couple wrenches get thrown in that when they a former best friend that has been absent from the semester of school for four months, three months comes back and sort of injects herself back into the friend group, so to speak, and.

Josh Felgoise (16:32.558)

They attempt to have the conversations that they feel like they should be having in the way that they feel like they should have them and they blunder their way through that and they reckon with their inability to do it right the first time I think and they reckon with their ability to Have those conversations when those conversations become personal to them a one of the girls is dad gets accused of

maybe assault, just misconduct. that's a good way to... Yes. And it gets even more complicated when Shelby, this girl that came back from her quote unquote sabbatical, accuses Mr. Smith, the girl's favorite teacher, the school's golden boy, so to speak, having sex with her.

And why don't you pick up from there? I think that's all the information that we need. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that was very well said. And, know, like when, when I saw that, I think a lot of people have had experiences like there's a, there was a teacher in my high school who that happened with my Latin teacher. And like, I was like, holy shit. That's that person. Like, I think there's only people in the audience who resonate with this story in so many different ways. What's crazy about that.

is that I think every single, what we learned through our rehearsal process is that every single person in our cast and in the team was like one or two degrees from personally knowing someone who this happened to. So crazy. Everyone happened at my high school. So many people at the stage door tell us, I had this teacher. It's such a common story. It's so, so crazy. I've never, I went into this show blind. I didn't know what to expect.

That's great and which I thought was so cool and I hope a lot of people have experienced that and still get to experience that I hope people leave this podcast and go and see it And another making a movie. We'll talk about that later But yeah, I mean that's it's just such a crazy Concept because it hasn't been talked about in this way before Which I thought was just it was just so well done And then Hagen I want to ask you the same question. I asked Gabe

Josh Felgoise (18:59.544)

How has playing these roles made you think about traditional masculinity differently and what it means to be a good man? Yeah, and thankfully I had all the time of Gabe talking to think about this. You weren't listening intently? That too. What does that say about toxic masculinity? Right. And I think to answer this question, I want to start like first as an actor, what I've learned and as an artist, I've learned through this process and a question that I've been, not a question, but a thing I've been grappling with.

very recently in fact. And that's this idea that, and it's something that Dunning speaks on or spoke on throughout this process that I'm remembering right now. And that's that two things being true and not canceling each other out. And it kind of goes to what Gabe was saying in that there are moments in his play where Mr. Smith, his character, is wonderful. It is also true that he does a

what some people would call a monstrous thing. And I think that this play asks people to consider that. Beth, one of the girls, is both an incredible A-plus feminist, and she also fails to believe the person that she should probably believe the most at a very critical moment in her journey. That doesn't make her less than what she was trying to be. She's still trying to be that.

And that was something that we spoke a lot about indirectly throughout the process when creating these characters. Because I think it's really easy to look at a character like Lee and think, well, he's an asshole. He's mean. see violence as his first answer to any question. He's unfeeling. He's remorseless. These are things that if you just read the script, those would be true. You could make those true.

But those were things that in that text that I sent Danya before I even got the part were things that I I Don't think it serves us to only see it that way Lee is a troubled character, but I do think that there's that there's hope in him Maybe just the question at least

Josh Felgoise (21:27.982)

And what going through this process and excavating this script has taught me is that there are, as an artist, that there are preconceptions that I have as a person about characters like this, about people like this. And there is a will that I have in trying to impose a happier ending on it, in a sense.

That makes any I don't know if that makes no that makes total sense. And it was shying away from the anger and the frustration because I thought to myself, I don't want people to just see that. I don't want people to just see the fact that he's angry. And then it goes to Gabe's point again, and that that doesn't serve the peace. It doesn't make sense for Ray Lynn, you know, the girl that Lee quote unquote kiss rapes.

if he's this nice guy, if he feels everything. There's a moment at the end of the scene that I have with her where I would start crying. And Danya came up to me one day and she said, if he can cry, then this probably doesn't happen. If he has the ability to move through those feelings deftly, then this probably doesn't happen. And in that moment, I had to really sort of...

I had to meet myself in a way and see that I was trying to impose something on this boy that I wanted to be true, but wasn't necessarily. That's so interesting. And you both have said similar things about your characters that like you want them to be good, but they're not because you want them to be liked because you see something in them that you want the audience to see. And Hagen, I'll say for your character, when I saw the show, there was one line that really stuck out to me that you said to, I think it was Rae Lynn, you said that like,

you look so pretty without makeup on, you don't need makeup. And you can tell that the character thought he was saying the right thing in that moment. Like there was no malintent in that moment. And I think every guy in that audience related in that moment, and I'll speak for myself instead of every guy, but I related in that moment because I've been there and I've said something similar that I thought was the right thing to say or something that would be taken as a compliment that is taken so far, not as a compliment, but like,

Josh Felgoise (23:53.822)

It's that type of guy that is so, he thinks he's doing the right thing at times or he's just trying to. And I think everybody knows a Lee, like your character, and has seen him in high school and is him at some point and is just trying to be right and figure out how to be better and just do good but can't figure out the right way to do it. Go ahead. And I think that, one, I would go so far as to say that most guys have probably been Lee's at a moment.

Totally. I grew up in a very feminine household. My dad traveled a lot, so I was raised a lot by my mother. And I have an older sister that was around a lot. And then my brother is not a very traditionally masculine man in the situs. And so I grew up in an environment where these conversations were being had, where I was hearing those perspectives. When I got to high school, there were still moments. And these are the moments that I think about every single day.

and doing this play is those moments where I really failed the people around me and even the ones and in Honestly to more directly answer your question. This play has taught me not to forget Though I think I'm I'm a male feminist now maybe but like There were moments in my life where I thought I was trying to but I wasn't I was actually failing pretty horribly

Right. And I in this play has taught me to really look at those moments and really think about them, not as defensive. And there's there's a moment this is incredibly personal, but there's a moment that pops up in my head often while I'm on stage and listening to Ray Lynn yell at me at the end of the play where someone a woman very dear to me. She said I was a negative person. And it pops up in my head every now and then, not not super often these days, but.

especially early on and whenever I thought about that moment in my life I always got very defensive and very hurt but in a way that was like how dare she? How dare she say that to me? When I think about it in this play and through this vessel I'm not being defensive because I know that in this moment Lee is being a negative person and it's moments like those in the play

Josh Felgoise (26:20.034)

that those thoughts, these other moments in my life come to me and I feel them in a way that I'm not defensive about. And it allows me to...

Process those feelings in a less judgmental way judgmental to The person who spoke them to me or the circumstances that led me to the behavior that I am defensive about But also defensive from myself in a way like I'm not defending myself from my past self I think that that is a huge theme in this play which is These characters are all trying

They're all attempting to be better. Even Mason, even Lee, and maybe even Mr. Smith. I think the girls in this play, the beautiful thing about it is that they are the ones who get to try and try again, and then they get the closest to succeeding or feeling like they did. But the boys are still trying, and the boys are still struggling. And the way that they struggle,

And think this is the sort of universal truth here and that we see in Mason and Lee is is the problem isn't the struggle. It's the way that you struggle. If your form of struggling is lashing out, if your form of struggling is grabbing on to too heavily like I think Lee does, he holds on too tightly. He doesn't let go when the moment is at. And I mean, by the play begins and they've already broken up and yet he's still.

grabbing her, he's still holding on to her too tightly. It's really, this play has really been a great conduit for me to confront my past self and in a way that isn't trying to protect myself from that past or judge myself for that past because in a way the play is already, is doing all the judgment I need. I think it's this beautiful thing that you get to do as an actor where you just trust that

Josh Felgoise (28:24.812)

The play is gonna decide who's right and who's wrong. All you need to do is pursue the truth of what you're feeling and the truth of what the character's journey is. That was so well said. That was incredibly interesting to listen to and thank you for sharing all of that. I always wonder if actors are just kind of like when you see a show, if you see some of yourself in the character.

if you want to be as far away from this character as possible, like how much of yourself you bring into this. So I think it's incredibly interesting to hear all of that. What do you guys think other guys can learn from this show or from these characters? Gabe, we'll start with you. Thank you for always starting with me. Of course. I mean, what can other guys learn? I think something about the journey

The one young man who's not with us is this great actor, Nihar, who plays Mason. I think part of his journey is finding out how to be an ally, how to be a real ally. And at the end, he gets to make this beautiful gesture that... very simple gesture, but when he makes it, the whole audience shrieks with joy because he stands up for the women in the right way.

And I think he spends the whole play trying to figure out what that is. And the cool thing about it is he stands up for them in the wrong way about five times before he stands up for them in the right way. And maybe sort of bouncing off of what Hagen was just talking about, part of it is like, I think a really easy place for men to get stuck is in defensiveness. And if you're like, I tried to stand up for you and you jumped down my throat, like there's this defensive quality and you can just hang on to something.

for weeks, months, years, and it metastasizes. It becomes this rotten thing in your gut. You hold onto it, and it's this narrative that can turn people into people who hate, you know? And I think part of it is forgiving yourself for misstepping and having the courage to step again. And if you step wrong again, take the feedback.

Josh Felgoise (30:46.594)

Don't be so defensive about it and try again. Also, something men can learn about from this play is maybe like about consent. About having tough conversations or vulnerable conversations before you make

bold physical choices that might allow both people to feel safe. Very well said. I completely agree. And I think there are so many things that every guy in the audience probably takes away from this play every night. And they may not come knowing what this is about, but I'm sure they leave thinking so many different things. Yeah, it's interesting. So I know that guys aren't really the target audience for this play either. And I think that getting to see this show

from a male perspective was so interesting and I'm really excited to see what the movie does in terms of the widespread appeal and the widespread response to. Hagen, what about you for what guys can learn from the show or from the characters? I love that Gabe brought up Nehar's character Mason because I think that he's sort of the success story of the play in a way.

I wanted to be here by the way, that's not... wanted to come. Yeah, no, and he wanted to be here too. He's too successful. He's too good for us now. He's been working very hard lately. I think what's really cool about this play is how responsive the audience is, how vocal that is, that's not typical. I think, especially in New York, there's a very specific etiquette that you're expected to have in the theater, and I think for one reason or the other, I haven't quite figured it out.

But this play invites you to break that etiquette for those who are brave enough to. We've had a lot of audiences where people are brave enough to. And again, with Mason, he gets all of these reactions in his trying and his failing. think people find it's very funny to watch someone try and fail, especially as clear heartedly that that Nehar does in this character and this character does through Nehar. He makes massive blunders all the way up till the end.

Josh Felgoise (33:09.77)

and yet without fail it's probably our most consistent reaction in the play from the audience when he stands up at the end of the play in support it always gets the support from the audience. Something I struggled with early on is how little support Lee gets from the audience. That open stream of breaking etiquette is a double-edged sword for some characters because there are some days where I'm going through

you know my scene with Rai Lin and the audience is laughing at me. There have been days where I've I feel like I'm having a panic attack on stage and the audience is laughing at me because they because he's the way he's expressing is is so clearly a problem. I think it's something that I hope people would see

is that even though there's like this meta thing happening where the audience is reacting to the actors and the actors are doing a thing and they're acting but they're also still the people up there I think it's really cool to see especially Mason's character, Nihar's character get those reactions from the audience and still continue to fight for their approval.

That's one thing. So I guess it's the same point as Gabe, but I just I wanted to add that to it. thing that I really truly hope and I think what we all need to be striving for is combating anti-social behavior. I think that when I don't know if it's if it's men specifically or what, but I think what I've witnessed from the people that I know that have gone through this, men specifically, boys specifically, it's this urge to withdraw.

I feel this in fact, honestly, I've been struggling a lot and this show has been very difficult for me and All last week Gabe could speak to this. Maybe this is too much sauce how the sausage gets made But I myself have been withdrawn withdrawing backstage during the show keeping to myself I think that is That is I don't want to say it's problematic behavior because it's I Don't like that word one and two. I don't know if it's problematic

Josh Felgoise (35:28.344)

but I think it's unhelpful behavior. And I hope that maybe through any sort of tidbits of vulnerability that I find through this character in a performance, hopefully somebody sees that the only way to receive other people's, to get woo-woo about other people's light is to open yourself up to it first.

And I think when you suffer moments of hardship, whether emotionally or physically, your urge, I don't know if this is an urge as a man, but I'll say it that it is for now, for points sake, your urge as a boy or as a man is to withdraw and protect and show people that, you can brunt it, you can handle it, you can carry it. Don't like, don't worry about me. I got this. Don't help me.

I think that only leads to festering and like Gabe said, eventually it leads to hate. It leads to resentment. And the only way to move out of that is to open yourself up, even in moments of struggle, even when you feel defensive. I don't know if the play, the play isn't about that. And that's the truth. At least it's not directly about that.

But I do hope that...

Josh Felgoise (37:03.818)

walk away with that in a way because I do think that the girls do exhibit that. There are moments where like where Ivy's character, Maggie's character withdrawals and she finally comes back and says you know I've been struggling and I miss you and it's that line that allows her to open up to Beth then supporting her. You can't get that support if you don't show up for it and I think that that's universal thing.

And I think that any man, any guy, any boy can relate to that. And I guess my greatest hope for it all is that people can look past the fact that these are girls on stage, boys can look past the fact that these are girls, and not just say, well, those are girls. I can't relate to that experience. When I do think it is a fairly...

There are so many moments in his play that are universal. I think that's why it lands. Yeah, it's so, so interesting what you're saying. And I've always wondered like what, I guess how the audience, which you guys, you guys touched on how the audience kind of affects the performance. And in the two times I saw it, the audience was so vocal. And there's one moment between your characters where Gabe, you yell Lee when.

you make a really off-colored comment and the audience like gasps or goes silent or like kind of like yelps and it and like it goes I've never heard a like a pin drop in a in an audience like that like it's really really crazy what happens in this show and does the audience really like affect the performance like if they laugh are you kind of changing your delivery or if they

Don't gasp as loud. you kind of like, how does it affect your performance, if that makes any sense? Of course. Yeah. Do you want me to take this so that you can, you don't have to be first every time, Take it, bro. Absolutely. I mean, there's the technical thing, what that's true to all shows, which is like when people laugh, you can't just keep talking. Otherwise the audience won't hear what you have to say and they'll be trained. They'll start to learn that they can't laugh because they don't want to miss the play. Obviously we're

Josh Felgoise (39:26.744)

There's something above that for us where there's more than just laughter. And I'll just keep going back to the scene that I have with Rae-Lynn where I feel there's a lot of variation. think Gabe also has a scene like this in the play. But there are some days where it is dead silent. I grab Rae-Lynn's face and from that point onwards people are like, this is danger. And they don't want to make a reaction or anything. There are some days where...

People are laughing from the beginning onward. As soon as I walk on stage, they're like, this guy's bad news in a laughable way. it's whether it's uncomfortable. I don't know exactly what they're going through, but I know that they're laughing. Yeah. And it absolutely fuels you. There's a moment at the end of that scene where I asked RayLana if she trusts me. And she says, obviously not. And there are some days where that gets huge laughter. On those days, my heart sinks.

because I can't ignore the fact that I'm in a room with 750 other people. I can't ignore that I am emotionally grounded in the pursuit of this girl and it's not working and the audience finds that funny. And it is a moment where I throw a desk right afterwards. There was one day where people started clapping after she said that line.

And I just stared at Amalia, my scene partner. And I don't think I've ever felt more like Lee than in that moment, where it was like, this feels horrible. It feels amazing and cool and awesome that we're affecting an audience. But in the moment, I'm experiencing so much emotion. And it's hard to disconnect the fact in that moment that I am.

crying or about to cry or whatever it is I'm hurting and people are laughing at me. So it absolutely it fills you up. It fills you up or it creates something that you need to fight against. the thing that's difficult about the theater is the goal is to be really consistent and to do eight great shows a week and to deliver it but also to be alive to what's happening in the room.

Josh Felgoise (41:47.68)

On days when you get a lot of laughs, that can feel really good. On days when you get no laughs, that can feel really bad. But the job is to deliver the story consistently. And Danya would say to us sometimes, you know, in early previews, we'd have a raucous performance and the next night would be a little quiet. We'd say, what the hell was wrong with them? She'd say, maybe the quiet ones needed the most. And so it's tough to not try and push when you're not getting the response that you think you want.

or to luxuriate when you're getting a great response because you have to keep the line taught so that you can walk across it. yeah, it's interesting with, it's interesting with Hagen's character because like the audience claps when someone calls him an asshole. They laugh when he's bearing his soul. But also that is, he's playing the function of his character very well. It's allowing.

girl's story to soar. So it's like, again, this thing that you were saying, like, how can men be better men? Like, that's what Hayden has to do. That's the landmine he has to step on in order to tell this story for these women. And it's a privilege, and it's hard, but it's privilege. And yeah, and mine is like, I receive crazy hate when I come back.

after the big reveal of my character and on Occasional performances the audience will voice that hate but other nights it will just be silent you get like booed. Yeah, really Yeah, I haven't experienced that viciously booed. It was mostly just our Student matinees, but we've had a couple other nights where people people will hiss actually my god But I think like

What I do elicits something really primal in people. And as you were saying, it happened at your school, it happened at Hagen's school, it happened at my school. Like, it's real, we've all experienced it. And all of sudden we're brought back to this childhood place of like, how dare he? But that's what I gotta do. That's my job. regardless of how I feel, if I woke up with a bad attitude, whatever it may be, like, you gotta step between the lines and do it.

Josh Felgoise (44:10.158)

and how the audience reacts does affect it, but also you have to steer the ship for them too. You gotta ride their waves, but you have to steer the ship for them. I love that, yeah. How do you guys balance, you're kind of saying like if you wake up in a bad mood, you still have to do this. How do you balance life and relationships and maintaining life outside of the show and this incredibly taxing career that you guys have taken on? How do you do that?

It's really difficult and occasionally feels thankless. know, one of the things that is interesting is like in popular culture, there's this real, there's this propensity to like make fun of actors, you know, in a lot of commercials, they're like the stupid guy, the vapid guy, the guy, I don't know how to talk unless I have lines in front of me, all that kind of thing. And it's a laugh and it's funny. But then...

All anybody wants to do is watch acting. And one goes home and it's like, have you seen this show? my God, have you watched Sephirons? If you've watched this, all anyone's doing is watching actors all the time. And it's a really difficult thing. And we're asked to jump into crazy situations. The eight-show-a-week Broadway grind is a particularly crazy situation. And you do a podcast about guys, so I imagine maybe this is projection that you like sports or that you care about sports in some degree.

I really think of it like being a professional athlete. mean, the way that you have to keep your body in shape, your diet, when you eat, how much you eat, how you warm up for a show, how you warm down for show, how you take care your voice. know, Hagen and I both do musicals as well. And like when you're doing a musical eight shows a week, that's a different kind of tax than it is doing a straight play. You have to live like you're playing in 162 game major league baseball season, but you're not getting paid $70 million to do it. You're just making a living wage.

One of the things is like, you know that there's thousands of people who would kill to be in the shoes that you're in. And so you don't want to take it for granted. But then there's the other thing of like, but I am who I am. I mean, we've been doing this since February, you know, and it's, it's really difficult. And some days it doesn't feel so good. Some days it feels great. And for me, it's ritual. I just get there early. I have my rituals. I try and do all these different things so that I can put myself in the best position to succeed.

Josh Felgoise (46:35.022)

for those two hours every night. For other people, it's different things. But you know, like a good baseball player is like, gotta get in the cages for an hour and hit. I'm that kind of guy. I'm just like, I'm gonna put my work in. I'm gonna make sure all my props are in the right place. I'm gonna do all this stuff. But other people approach it differently and whatever allows you to do great work, I think that's what you gotta do. Before you get to hate, can you tell me all about your rituals and like...

what you eat, your sleep schedule. I'm actually really, really curious about all that because- You'll have to really push him for it. do not share that very cagey about them. Okay, well, whatever you want to share. Sure, I mean- Or just like what you eat, how much you sleep. I think all that's really interesting too. I mean, I try and get seven or eight hours if I can. I tend to get to the theater two hours early. I tend, I like to touch every seat in the theater before every performance.

Cause I really want to like go into the space and bless the space and just feel like where the audience is sitting. I've been in every single aisle and I've touched every single chair tonight and every night so that they like, and if that makes a difference or not, it makes a difference to me. I believe like I've been out there and I've touched your seat and I'm going to touch you tonight. I'm going to get you. And that's what I say when I run through it's like, I'm going to get you. I'm like, you're going to get it tonight. I touch all my props, you know, like I give them all a little kiss.

I warm up my body, I warm up my voice, I have like a series of songs I listen to. There's a couple little, there's like a statue of Edwin Booth. We're in the Booth Theater, so I gotta go talk to Edwin Booth every day, say hello to him, thank him for letting me be in this theater. I talk to the ghosts of the theater, you know, just like all the great performances that have been, this theater was built in 1913, there's been incredible performers through the decades that have played here. just say hello to him every night.

express my gratitude for being able to be there even when sometimes it's hard to find that gratitude. I express it, maybe it'll be there. Anything you can't eat or like what do you try to eat? Like what do you guys avoid? I'm curious about everything, honestly. I try not to eat too much hot sauce because like of acid reflux, you know. I try and eat pretty clean when I'm doing the show. You know, one thing that I'm a little self-conscious about is the girls. There's an early part in the play where the girls talk about like, oh my God, he's so hot. Have you seen his shoulders? Have you seen this? you seen how

Josh Felgoise (48:50.22)

And so, like, I really wanna be fit while I play this role, because I think if I slack on that in any degree, then that's another way that you're already gonna not believe these girls. And the whole thing is about believing women. And it's like, he's so hot, but you're like, this guy's really not. This guy doesn't take care of himself. And it's like, okay, already I'm not believing these women. And so, yeah, like, I like to go swim a mile at the gym a few days a week if I can. Yeah, I tend to eat.

either a sweet green or Chipotle before the show, just like rice, beans, chicken. Keep it pretty simple, keep it pretty clean. I tend to eat about two and a half hours before so that I'm hungry. Like I don't wanna be full when I start, know, things like that. You just gotta think about this stuff because it's like, I feel for it, because some of our younger castmates are like having stomach problems while they're doing the show. And it's like, yeah, when I was your age, I also had not yet figured out how to eat before shows, because it's crazy, it's hard. And also,

Now that we know when the end is coming, we're all trying to audition for film and TV. We're auditioning for the next play. So even though we're doing eight shows a week, we're also out here hustling. We're doing podcasts. You know what I'm saying? Totally. Totally. No, it's a job inside of a job. People don't even think about that type of thing. So it's incredibly interesting to hear all of that. Hagen, what about you? A lot of it's very similar. also a very spiritual person. I didn't grow up very religious, but I found spirituality through the theater.

through that expression, through that giving and receiving of energy. I think at the end of the day, lot of religion is just based on that connection, on that I say a word and you react to it based on how it makes you feel. And then you give that back to me and I give it back to you and we do this until we can't anymore. So there's a lot of ritual. Yes, it's a very athletic thing, what we're doing right now. This is a very athletic sect of acting. So warming up every day, doing a stretch.

I have a whole, you know, a 15, depending on how much time I have, a 15 to 25 minute stretch that ends in a moment of meditation. Music is a really big part of it. I also speak to the ghosts of the theater, funnily enough. And yeah, you just try to, I think something that Donya sort of spouts, is amazing, which is that you can only, you need to do the best you can do today.

Josh Felgoise (51:18.52)

but you can only do the best that you can do today. She doesn't say it exactly like that, but that's how I hear it. you know, some days you're not feeling good. Some days your stomach fucking hurts, bro. Some days you made a mistake and you ate that fried chicken before the show and you're in for it. Yeah, what do you do if you have to go to the bathroom and you're on stage? Has that ever happened to you guys? You hold it and you wait until you get off stage. no scene in this play is very long.

I feel for... I did a play before the other play I did with Danya the actress that played the lead had to be on stage for the entire hour and a half. So you know I haven't had that experience so I can't speak to it but it takes it takes a level of athleticism and dogma and discipline. There is a thing that we call doctor theater which is like

So many actors are like, my God, I have a migraine or my, I can't see or my stomach, I'm vomiting. And then it's your cue, you go on stage, Dr. Theater, that's what we call it. You just like, figure it out because it's just the shows, the play is the thing and you owe it to the play. sometimes it's pretty unhealthy because you're just like, I'm dying, but I'm gonna do my role. But it's also kind of beautiful. And some days it serves you. That's right.

Like I said, this past week has been really tough for me. I've been experiencing a lot of anxiety. A lot of anxiety, some of the most anxiety I've experienced in my life. And that has physical repercussions. I'm one of the young actors that struggles to figure out how to feed myself in the show's schedule. How old are you, Hagen? I'm 27. OK, OK, sorry.

But I've only done a few of these so you know I haven't quite figured out the formula the way Gabe has and There are some performances this week where Being on stage was a painful thing to be doing in that moment I was deeply anxious and afraid of the audience and afraid of what was gonna happen next Yeah in a way that you really can't be when you're on stage But I think part of being a great theater actor

Josh Felgoise (53:32.706)

that's different than maybe another type of acting is that you have to be flexible. And personally, all those moments are moments for me to figure out how to on the fly, how do I make this into something that I don't have to ignore and can actually embrace? There are things that you can't embrace. you're, I don't know, like if you're gonna be burping the whole show, if you're experiencing a lot of gas, maybe you can't just be burping and farting all on stage.

But I mean, like a stomach thing or anxiety, these are things that you can embrace and not ignore. And you kind of have to because, like Gabe said, you have to do the show. mean, there are things built in place to save you for an actor that can't go on. But I think the understanding is that those are only for moments where you truly can't go on. And it's up to you to muster up the courage and whatever you need to muster up to get yourself.

there. But on a more zoomed out level, this job is a lot about it's a lot about like it is another job figuring out how to feed yourself and discovering what what makes me feel good before a show and like is it drinking a cup of coffee at half hour? Is it drinking a cup of coffee right before the show starts? Is it eating an hour and half before the show or is it eating at half hour? Like

I have a very fast metabolism. If I eat at 5 30 for a 7 p.m. show, I will be hungry by 7 p.m. So for me, it's like I always have apples. I always have goldfish, simple things that I can eat if I need to backstage really quickly. I do not function when I'm hungry. I become very irate and it just doesn't work. I don't have a concrete answer because I'm still figuring it out. No, I think that's I think that's interesting.

Thanks for sharing about the anxiety stuff. mean, I'm sure so many people relate to that. I relate to that personally. Anybody has listened to this podcast, they've heard me talk about that I'm super anxious one week and that leads to like a different podcast or a different episode than that would have led to because I want to talk about how I'm dealing with the anxiety that week or just it's, it does, it affects everything. I think it's, you serve your, when you're working in this, this industry of like giving to other people.

Josh Felgoise (55:53.71)

You serve yourself and you also serve your audience or whoever you're speaking to to be open about your experience. obviously in play, can't turn to the audience and be like, I'm having a panic attack. But like I can be open about that in the way that I'm expressing myself. And I do. We we don't have a lot of freedom on stage, but we also have all the freedom we need on stage. You know, there there is a strong confines of the play of the blocking of the production that we've set. But there's also freedom in that.

my voice can express how I'm feeling right now. And I can still say these words and they can mean something different today. Yeah. And they're, yeah, it's, it's a really fun thing to work within and discover and be open with both yourself and with, with the audience. And yeah, I hope any young actor knows that they don't have to, they don't have to pretend it's actually a lot less about pretending than you think.

Thank you for saying all of that. That's really, really interesting. And I'll leave you guys with one question. I know we're a little over time, so I want to ask you both. What is your advice to your younger self? I'm not going to say who starts. You guys pick. I thought about this because people at the stage are often asked for advice. A lot of young actors will come to the show and they'll they'll talk. I've also spoke to a lot of alumni, not alumni of current students of the university I went to. And I always try to try to talk to them. And I think.

The thing that really hindered my time, especially in high school and in middle school, but who the fuck knows what happens in middle school. But high school and college especially was this need to constantly be moving forward. I think I suffered a little bit from this idea that I always needed to be getting better at being myself. And I think that took away from my ability to have fun.

Because really in in this pursuit that I thought I was improving myself. I was I was judging myself which both shut me down and made it so that I wasn't able to be free in my expression and in my Literally everything I was also judging other people I was holding people to the same standard that I held myself to which wasn't fair to them And it also wasn't fair to me

Josh Felgoise (58:19.756)

I don't know how to formulate that into direct advice, but I think, because I don't think telling someone to just stop judging themselves or stop judging the people around you. What I do try to say is focus on the joy and the fun, and if you're not finding the joy and the fun in anything, then you're probably a few steps away from operating at full capacity. I've worked jobs that I hated, and I still found a way to...

find joy and there were still people in them that were finding joy inside of it. I've done many things that I didn't want to do and I just truly believe that there's really no point to do anything and not at least try to enjoy it and I think that starts with judging yourself which then causes you to judge other people. Well said I think that's great advice. I think it was good.

I would say invest in your friendships, put down the weed and be kinder to yourself. Great advice. Much better, much more succinct. No, mean that's good advice. Well, I appreciate you both so much for doing this. I loved the show. I think what you guys do in the show is really incredible. I think you both have the hardest jobs in the show.

and do an amazing job in really showcasing the purpose of it and any guy getting to go see this, I'm really excited to hear reactions from people that see this. I'm excited to hear what they think of the movie coming out. Do you guys have any involvement in the movie? Do you know what's happening with that at all? That is as far removed from us as anything could be.

Okay, well, I'm excited to see it and thank you both so much for coming on. I really appreciate the time. Of course. Thank you for... Great talking to you, Josh. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for holding this space. It's appreciated. Yeah, really nice to meet you guys. We'll talk soon. You as well. Take care. That is the episode. Thank you so much for listening to Guy's Set, a guy's guide to what should be talked about. I'm Josh. I'm 25 years old and I'm here every single week, every single Tuesday to talk about what should be talked about for guys in their 20s.

Josh Felgoise (01:00:36.558)

If you liked this episode, really hope you did. Please like subscribe with this podcast five stars. That's one, two, three, four, five stars, not four, two, two, one. It's five stars. I really, really, really appreciate that. If you're even talking about that, should we talked about four guys in their 20 sent to my DMS to my email or on my website? It's DMS at the guy set T H E G U I S E T on Instagram, Tik Tok, all social media platforms, YouTube, wherever you go. Uh, you can also email me at Josh at guys.com j o s h at G U I S E T.com or head over to my website guys.com G U I S E T.com.

and I will be sure to talk about it. Thank you so much listening to Guyset, a guys guide to what should be talked about and I will see you guys next Tuesday. See you guys.